Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 28: Electronic Edition

Pages 31 - 35 of 204

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 1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     You say so.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     No, that is the question, as viewed from the left, he is
 3politically incorrect?
 4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I only refer to letters, that includes the German law and
 5you may call this "political correctness" what the German
 6laws are doing, fine with you.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     I do not want to have too long answers to this, but under
 8German --
 9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Very short --
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     -- under the German constitution freedom of speech is
11protected, is it not?
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think I know what the position is.
13 MR IRVING:     But except for one exception.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think we need any questions and
15answers about it.
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     -- no, there are more than one exception.
17 MR IRVING:     Paragraph 4.2.14, page 45.
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     You mentioned here on line 5 a lunatic, in my view, called
20Gary Lauck?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     What line?
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Line five, you mention a American gentleman of
23questionable mental stability, in my view, called Gary
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     He is not on the list.

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 1 MR IRVING:     Is he not on the list? Am I not going to be
 2questioned about Lauck?
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, he is not on list and I am therefore
 4assuming he is not one of those who is relied on by the
 5Defendants as a right-wing extremist associate.
 6 MR IRVING:     Paragraph 4.4.1, this is not one of the people that
 7is a reference to the Leuchter report, Anthony Zundel. It
 8is accepted, of course, that I know Zundel and I have had
 9contact with Zundel, right? You state in paragraph 4.4.1
10in line 4 that "he was found guilty of peddling
11anti-Semitic propaganda"; was that the actual charge?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I have to look. Can you translate this sentence to be
13very precise.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Line 4?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     To my best knowledge, but maybe there is more to it.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, he was not actually convicted of peddling
17anti-Semitic propaganda, the charge was spreading false
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, but this kind of false information, I would call it,
20that is in the realm of anti-Semitism, so it is my
21judgment, or my assessment to that.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     But you accept that that is not actually what he was
23charged with or convicted --
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No problem with it.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     -- you also accept the conviction was subsequently
26overturned by Canada's Supreme Court?

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 1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     So far as I know.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     And that he has no convictions, he is free of any
 4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I do not know if he is now free of any conviction.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Let me put that the other way round, are you aware of any
 6conviction against him which has been upheld?
 7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I do not know, I have to say I do not know.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     If no conviction against Ernst Zundel has been upheld he
 9is less of a convict than I am?
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think the point is whether these
11people have convictions, Mr Irving, it is what they say
12and do, not whether they are found to be guilty of some
13local law.
14 MR IRVING:     It is a question of degree, my Lord. People like
15Anthony Eden or Lord Halifax, as we know, made
16anti-Semitic remakes in private and other people go around
17smearing swastikas on synagogue. One end of the scale is a
18criminal conviction, other end of the scale is people's
19rather tasteless private rights to freedom of speech.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The point I am trying to make is what they do
21and say, not whether they are convicted or whether they
22are not.
23 MR IRVING:     The fact they are convicted or not is a useful
24indicator for us as to the severity of the anti-Semitism
25which has been a component of their actions, in my view.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.

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 1 MR IRVING:     Or a possible one.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     So then are Mr Irving's convictions going to stand
 3here in this court as evidence of his guilt of
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I understand the intervention, but the answer
 6is "no".
 7 MR RAMPTON:     Quite.
 8 MR IRVING:     Not a very helpful interruption. 448, I am sorry
 9still stay on paragraph 4.4.1.
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     You refer there to the Leuchter report?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Towards the end of it you say you the report was not
14accepted by the court. Are you aware that under Canadian
15rules of evidence engineering reports like that are
16accepted only if both parties agree in advance, so it had
17nothing to do with the quality of the report?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think this witness can possibly
19answer that.
20 MR IRVING:     No, my Lord. He has stated broadly it was not
21accepted --
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, it was not ever put in evidence in the
23Canadian proceedings.
24 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I will make submissions when the time
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     All right, but not through this witness,

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 1I think.
 2 MR IRVING:     4.4.8, that was just little bit of advertising that
 3I will be making submissions when the time comes on that,
 4my Lord.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you very much.
 6 MR IRVING:     Paragraph 4.4.8, you are refer to a body called
 7GdNF, not for the first time.
 8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     What is the GdNF? I had lost track of it by this time --
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     The Kuhnen connection, we spoke at length yesterday about
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     -- well, then I can ask this simple question as it has
13involved Mr Kuhnen, is there any evidence in any of my
14diaries or private correspondence to which you had
15complete access of my knowledge of a body called GdNF?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, you have been blank interaction with Christian
17Worch. He is one of main activists.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is not my question, my question was is there any
19reference whatsoever to GdNF, which frankly I have seen
20for first --
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It is my shortening, GdNF. It is the shortening of the
22OPC. In Germany you may call different.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You have not realized it is the
25 MR IRVING:     The way he put it in his acronym I assumed it was
26something like NATO, which is not a figment of

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