Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 28: Electronic Edition

Pages 26 - 30 of 204

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    I do not know, you know better. But I know what you spoke
 1minute about -- no, we talked about just a minute ago, for
 2example, in Halle.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     These groupings came after they were banned
 5in '92, '93, '94, '95, all the more to this NPD organized
 6and led by this Deckert, so a you have good friend.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     You are talking '92, '93, '94, it is getting rather vague
 8now, because from '93 onwards I was never in Germany?
 9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Oh, no, I can be very precise. I said bans were sent to
10these groups from '92 onwards.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I make it very simple for you --
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     You were there, or you could go into the country, and you
13did up to the end of '93.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     -- 9th November 1993. Let me make simple for you,
15Dr Funke, and ask outright, do you know of any occasion
16when I addressed a meeting to an organization which was at
17that time illegal or banned in Germany?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     So far I know you do not address a meeting that was
19banned -- of a group that was banned at that time.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Thank you.
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     That was not my point at all.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     You say you have seen the correspondence between myself
23and Gunther Deckert who is one of names on the list?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Your footnote on page 39.
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, OK.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was there anything extremist about that correspondence?
 2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     We go into the correspondence.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, if we must, yes, but --
 4 MR IRVING:     Can I ask you if there was any anti-Semitism
 5expressed in that correspondence?
 6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I have to go into -- you know, piece by piece and then we
 7can decide.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     RWE 2, tab 8.
 9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     2, tab 8, excuse me, I am not familiar with this (Pause).
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sorry, did I tell you the wrong one, it
11is my fault, maybe it is 9, RWE tab 9.
12 MR IRVING:     I am not sure this is the right way to do this, my
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, this is not really your fault. I think
15this is not going to be a productive exercise. If you do
16not object, Mr Irving, do you mind me asking Mr Rampton,
17he may not be able to help off the top of his head, but is
18there anything you particularly rely on in the Deckert
19correspondence as being extremist? I have looked through
20the index and there does not appear to be anything.
21 MR RAMPTON:     Not as being explicitly extremist, no.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Otherwise, we will spend half an hour
23trawling through for no purpose.
24 MR RAMPTON:     I quite agree. If I should find something --
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You can re-examine.
26 MR RAMPTON:     Then I shall include it in some submissions later.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Or re-examination.
 2 MR IRVING:     Let me ask, Dr Funke --
 3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Just a second, can I just go through 30 seconds more?
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, if you find some extremist references.
 5 MR IRVING:     That will be very helpful.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     I would not expect to find it in the
 7correspondence anyway.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Nor would I , which is why I wonder what the
 9purpose of this is.
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     -- oh, yes.
11 MR RAMPTON:     I would, would I?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, you would, I have one, but I want to use my 20
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You might extend that briefly.
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I am not -- I refer to the following, it is II, it is at
16the beginning of No. One, tape 8, and the second page,
1712th May '91, right. Do you have it? II.
18 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Yes.
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     There in the middle it is stated, but I have to check what
20are the references, the audio cassette and what have you,
21"in three/four years, at the latest, these legends will
22no longer hold water the legend will be over and then the
23tables will be turned and the whole" and so forth drowned
24out in past. This statement, if this is included in what
25you referring to here, we have to go to the sentence
26before and after, so far I see it can be referring to the

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 1Holocaust thing. If so, then of course it fits in my
 2perception of what is extremist.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you very much.
 4 MR IRVING:     He organized a meeting for me in Weinheim on
 5September 3rd 1990, did he not, nearly ten years ago now;
 6is that right?
 7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, it is the time that is of interest.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, he has been in prison for seven years for being
 9chairman of that meeting, has he not?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I do not think so, seven years, but --
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     He is still in prison now?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     -- but several times, for a quite lot of time, right.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
14 MR IRVING:     Paragraph -- do you approve of the imprisonment of
15people for chairing meetings where historians speak?
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, I do not think that is helpful.
17 MR IRVING:     Paragraph 4.2.6 on page 42, you mention --
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     OK, just a second I have to, it is not so wide this
19space. 42, you say?
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     -- page 42, paragraph 44.2.6.
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     You mention Worch, Christian Worch and his wife Uschi?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     You rightly say that I am close friends or was close
25friends with that family. Worch is a trained lawyer, is
26he not?

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 1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I do not know that he is a trained lawyer, but he was a
 2kind of assistant to a lawyer, and in that function he
 3acted also in his political.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Had he not studied law?
 5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     So far I know he was in the lawyer -- as a lawyer's firm
 6as an assistant. He did not study law so far as I know.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     At the time --
 8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     To my best knowledge.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     -- at all material times had he a criminal record?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Excuse me?
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     At all the material times that I was dealing with him had
12he a criminal record, to your knowledge?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, there was -- he was sentenced, yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     What, under German laws for suppression of free speech or
15under regular criminal...
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I mean under regular German law that includes some limits
17to freedom of expression. You know that.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well --
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The point was, it was put in a slightly
20tendentious way, but were these conviction for speaking
21about the Nazi era?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     -- yes, I have to look up. It was in the ----
23 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Well, did he have any convictions which were for petty
24theft or burglary?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Because of his activities, yes, definitely.
26 MR IRVING:     He is another politically incorrect friend of mine?

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