Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 28: Electronic Edition

Pages 21 - 25 of 204

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    The point is it is difficult to judge by
 1audience who the people are? We do not know who is in
 2this court room, we might have John George Hague, the acid
 3bath murderer. He might be one of these members of the
 4public or someone like that and we do not know, do we?
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, the case against you is not that
 6these people look like extremists, but that they have a
 7track record of extremism and that you associated with
 8them. So I do not think we want to spend terribly long on
 9their physical appearance.
10 MR IRVING:     Yes. But unless I am mistaken also the case
11against me is in part that these extremist organisations
12that I have been addressing, you would have expected all
13the trappings, "bovva boots", skinheads and flags --
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I follow that point.
15 MR IRVING:     And the rest of it. These, on the face of it,
16these meetings appear to be respectable, middle-class,
17rather boring lectures.
18     (To the Witness) Now I would like to return to
19your report, please, page 39.
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Just a second.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     You refer to the NPD, can I ask you the simple question;
22is the NPD illegal or banned?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Just a second. What page?
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Page 39 of your report.
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     So be it.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is the NPD -- it is a political party in Germany, is it

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 2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it illegal or banned?
 4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It is not banned.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     So there is no reason why one should not address if one
 6was invited to a function organized by NPD, or is there?
 7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I stated yesterday it is formally not legal, but it is
 8perceived by the social sciences, as well as by the
 9official institutions as a hardcore, right-wing extremist.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, well, we know how much weight we have attach to that,
11I think.
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No, we are different on that.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but the left wing --
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, do not argue about it, we have the
16 MR IRVING:     You mention Franz Schonhuber, I am not going to
17dwell upon him, but he was a popular Bavarian television
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Which is how I first came to know him. I was on his show,
21is that correct?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I did not --
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     So that is how I first came to know him. Lower down that
24page you refer to a man at 4.1.3, a man, Gottfried Kussel,
25do you have any evidence at all that I have any kind of
26contacts with Mr Kussel?

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 1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     -- you were at the same demonstration, for example.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Being in the same room, that kind of thing?
 3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I alluded to that, that that is different and the Halle
 4demonstration, he was at the top of this demonstration and
 5that shows something for this kind of demonstration. It
 6is not like a, you know, anarchist way, they are this and
 7they are the others, he was at the top of the
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     You mean at the front --
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     He represented, at the head of it, yes, and he represented
11the new leadership of the Kuhnen connection where you
12spoke to.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     -- yes.
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     To whom you spoke.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     I do not want to interrupt you, but we certainly do not
16want to view that video again unless his Lordship orders,
17but you are not suggesting in any of those shots showing
18Mr Kussel I was also visible?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     The shots we did not see shows the hotel hall in the
20longer version and I saw it several times, and there the
21people went out and in, and you were asked you if you
22would -- so far as I recall, but we have to see it then
23again, if you will also meet Kussel and you said something
24I cannot recall. So it was -- you were aware somehow, and
25you drove to Halle I think three hours or more from
26Hamburg with Uschi or Ursula Worch, one of the leaders of

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 1this Kuhnen connection at that time, so you may have
 2known, and if not it seems, for me at least, you are
 3responsible not to whom you speak to.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     So to boil down what you are saying, what you are saying
 5is I was in the same large city as Kussel and that he was
 6at the head of the demonstration on shots of film we have
 7seen but I am not in those shots and that you say there
 8are other shots of film -- are you saying that I am
 9together with him in those shots of film?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I do not know. But you were together at the meeting,
11he -- if we go very carefully through the video again
12I think you will see him at the spot where you spoke. So
13you cannot deny, you cannot deny that this is a
14Kussel/Kuhnen connection, demonstration to whom you
15spoke. This is a clear cut case. You know it.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Now you are bringing in Michael Kuhnen. We have already
17established that I have no contact whatsoever with Michael
18Kuhnen --
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It does not matter, we refer -- we agreed even to call
20these groups "the Kuhnen crew" or "the Kuhnen connection",
21we can also say "Sinnungsgemeinschaft". So I know what
22I am speaking about. These groups at that very meeting at
239th November '91 met. These were clear cut neo-Nazi
24groups organized by Christian Worch, by Uschi Worch and
25you were invited by Uschi Worch the other day in the
26evening, according to a diary, to meet this demonstration

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 1and to talk to them.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, this is getting a bit repetitive, if
 3I may say so, I have the evidence about Kussel. I think
 4he can move on now.
 5 MR IRVING:     Yes. Footnote 117 on that page, 39, we find
 6Deckert, how many meetings do you think that the
 7schoolteacher, Dr Deckert, organized for me as chairman?
 8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     -- I do not know, you know better.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Two meetings; is that right?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     One in Stuttgart and one in Weinhart?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Could be, yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Both reputable bodies?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Excuse me?
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Both reputable bodies, the one in Stuttgart was to a
16veterans association, the one in Weinheim was to some
17other little splinter group?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I do not know, you know better. But I know what you spoke
19to and who Deckert is, and for the Lordship I just want to
20remind you that this is very famous and influential member
21of the NPD at that time, and got a bit later the
22leadership of this same NPD, and in which in that time the
23NPD radicalized with respect to hardcore revisionism, and
24with respect, and this is even for my assessment more
25important, radicalized in organizing these groupings we
26are talking -- we talk just a minute -- we talked just a

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