Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 28: Electronic Edition

Pages 196 - 200 of 204

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 1 MR IRVING:     Professor Funke, you said that these kinds of
 2remarks addressed to skinheads and youngsters are liable
 3to lead to attacks on synagogues and so on, is that
 4the ----
 5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Say it again. Excuse me.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Referring to my remarks at Hagenau (which I will discuss
 7with you in a moment) "addressed to skinheads and
 8youngsters", that was your phrase, would be liable to
 9cause the kind of circumstances you referred to there,
10like tombstones being overthrown, synagogues attacked, and
11so on?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     This kind of rhetoric, yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I ask you just to have a look at the photograph,
14please, on page 15 of the bundle of photographs which is
15the audience at Hagenau and tell me how many skinheads and
16youngsters you can see in it?
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well...
18 MR IRVING:     My Lord, he said, it is a hypothetical thing, "If
19these remarks had been addressed to skinheads and
20youngsters, that would have been the outcome".
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No, it is researched. It is researched. It is the
22[German] research -- you may know it -- about the
23widespreading of anti-Semites within male youngsters who
24are often the same token very violent.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Answering Mr Rampton's question, you said that these
26remarks addressed to skinheads and youngsters would have

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 1these undesirable effects and you are probably right. But
 2if you look at the audience who were listening ----
 3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, of course, the audience is different.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Middle aged?
 5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, with the exception of Christian Worch and his gang.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Right. I am only going to refer briefly to the one man
 7gas chamber. If I am lecturing an audience on the
 8improbabilities of aspects of the Holocaust legend and, as
 9this court well knows, I criticise the quality of a lot of
10the eyewitness evidence, and if one of the eyewitnesses,
11and we know there is a lot of lurid eyewitness evidence
12that we can discard, has described this rather improbable
13contraption, would that fit the description of what I have
14described in that speech?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     What you are doing here is that you pretend that the
16eyewitnesses are excessing ----
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Exaggerating?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     --- exaggerating and producing legends, but I have to be
19now very personal. I did a book of those, it is called
20"Other Memory" of those who left Germany because of the
21pressure and later on the torture by the Nazi
22authorities. Social scientists, like Eric Ericson,
23Zaufriedlende, and what I learned as the essence of this
24encounter in the late '80s and at the time we are talking
25about, is, and I quote Zaufriedlende of the historian, the
26famous, that all those, excuse me ----

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you just answer the question about this being a piece
 2of lurid eyewitness evidence?
 3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     That all those -- I do -- that all those who went through
 4this horror ----
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     The trauma?
 6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     --- the trauma -- right, thank you -- cannot do this kind
 7of research just as an objective historian. They have to
 8do the objectivity and, on the other hand, they have to
 9always rely to the experiences they themselves or their
10families went through. So, in other words, I would say no
11to all those who discard eyewitnesses. That does not say
12that the reconstruction of the Auschwitz horror, the
13cosmos of death -- if you go there you would see, you
14would sense it even today -- that the essence of this
15trauma and terror done by these Jews there, the mass
16gassing included, that this has been reconstructed by
17various means, and I think Peter Longerich did an awful
18good witness statement and paper to that, together with
19Mr Van Pelt. And so it is very clear that you cannot only
20count on the description of the eyewitnesses, although it
21is especially for the subjectivity what they went through
22very decisive.
23     So to quote your reference to Dresden, the
24Dresden thing are horror for a lot of people and you refer
25to the ashes of Dresden, but you cannot do it only -- you
26can do it only if you refer in the same token to the ashes

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 1of Auschwitz.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Right, but now let me put it like this. If in a speech
 3I make a number of references to the appalling horrors
 4undoubtedly suffered by the victims of Auschwitz, and
 5I have never made any attempt to minimize them and I
 6have referred to the shootings in Russia, I have quoted
 7the Bruns report, and, on the other hand, I then mock the
 8eyewitnesses who have obviously lied for whatever reason
 9and dreamed up these totally ludicrous stories about the
10one man portable gas chamber, is it not dishonest, in your
11view, for somebody to take just that passage out and put
12that as a representation of my entire speech?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It is, what you are doing is again and again. Look at the
1440 pages that was with the help of our assistant, Thomas
15Robins and Dunn, on the anti-Semitic or the rhetoric you
16did on this issue. So I recall just another quotation of
17you. So if it would be one time, we can cross over, but
18you did it again and again, and you just minutes ago
19referred that mass gassings did not happen. So if this,
20as long as this is the case, I cannot say yes to any of
21this kind of cynicism that you put to the public. Let me
22just recall this other quotation.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     If it is relevant, please?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is relevant to the question ----
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It is.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- but we do not want a lot of speeches?

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 1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It is very short. It is like that you say, OK, this kind
 2of survivors of the Holocaust, and you put it up in the
 3way that you can quote it as "assholes". This cannot be.
 4If you honestly, if you seriously, are saying that you
 5realize the trauma of those who went through, if they
 7 MR IRVING:     Can I now take you to the letter dated 30th January
 81991 which has been introduced by Mr Rampton?
 9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Firstly, the question of the date. I do not know whether
11Mr Rampton meant it seriously or not, but as he said it
12I have to comment on it, if the letter is dated 30th
13January 1991, and if you look at the very top line, it
14is ----
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Excuse me, I missed it. 9th November or?
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     30th January?
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     30th January 1991, Dr Frey?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
19 MR IRVING:     Yes. If you look at the very top line, the fax
20line, it was faxed at 1.13 p.m. on the following day.
21Then the letter was probably written on January 30th,
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Right.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     OK. If you turn the page, please, do you see I describe
25there that a number of great Germans I intend to talk
26about, the Nobel Prize winner, Otto Hahn and

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