Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 28: Electronic Edition

Pages 191 - 195 of 204

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    If remarks of that kind, one might call it a joke in the
 1that kind were made in that company and others of like
 2mind, would you expect laughter from people like that or
 4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, a special laughter, identifying ----
 5 MR IRVING:     Why did Mr Rampton describe this as a joke?
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, it is not helpful really for you
 7to keep interrupting. You might even give me the wrong
 8impression by your continued interruptions. Those words
 9were spoken by you.
10 MR IRVING:     As a quotation from a document, yes, and for
11Mr Rampton to describe it as being a joke by me is
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     When you say there was probably a telephone
14bell inside and it rang and the soldiers told him,
15"I think that's for you", what was ----
16 MR RAMPTON:     What is the document? May we have it, my Lord?
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sorry?
18 MR RAMPTON:     I was wondering whether this document should be
19disclosed. I have never seen it, a quotation from a
20document. It may be the draft of Mr Irving's speech.
21I do not know.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We have this now. Do not let us chase that.
23I am conscious of slight constraints of time.
24 MR IRVING:     I will not interrupt again but I find it repugnant
25that he should have two bites of the cherry like this.
26 MR RAMPTON:     It may be, my Lord, that others in this room,

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 1including your Lordship, most particularly your Lordship,
 2find if repugnant that Mr Irving should have said anything
 3of this kind at all ever in his whole life.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That as maybe. I am not, Mr Irving, giving
 5Mr Rampton two bites of the cherry. If you remember what
 6happened yesterday, I decided that it was wrong to have
 7the German translated by Professor Funke as we went along,
 8and I therefore said that the video should be relied only
 9for who they showed you in company with. I invited, this
10is my recollection, Mr Rampton if he wanted to rely on
11what you had said to prepare a translation and then we
12could do it properly. I think that is exactly what
13Mr Rampton is doing.
14 MR IRVING:     These are heavily edited excerpts which are
15produced for a rogues' gallery purpose which are now being
16used for their excerpt value which is unfair to me.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have given you permission, Mr Irving, later
18on to tell me in what way the context can affect what you
19said about one man gas chambers being taken around the
20Polish countryside by two soldiers.
21 MR IRVING:     Your Lordship is familiar with the ----
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If you are able to produce anything that
23affects the meaning, then please do so, but not now.
24 MR IRVING:     Your Lordship is familiar with the context,
25I think.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, Mr Rampton, would you like to ----

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving has the advantage of me, I have to say.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- press on?
 3 MR RAMPTON:     I will. Then we cut to Irving again and then we
 4have some more German. Lots of question marks because the
 5poor old translator, I dare say, could not pick up what
 6the Hitler pick up what the words were. Anyhow, let us
 7read the fragment that we have got, may we? "Now, to
 8solve the enigma of the Auschwitz gas chambers, last
 9October the Vatigan established that, according to carbon
10dating, the something or other probably without
11doubt", literally in German without objection, "dates from
12the years between 12.60 and 13.90, but some scientists
13argue that the wholly energy [blank] a body [blank] during
14resurrection the [blank] would have lifted up [blank]".
15Do you follow that? If you would like to look at the
16German, do you follow the drift of that thought, Professor
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It seems, but help me, that it is referring to.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The Turin Shroud I should think, is it, or
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     To the shrine, right.
22 MR RAMPTON:     That is right, but transferring if I could ----
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not sure that it is really a matter of
24evidence, this, I think it is a matter of ----
25 MR RAMPTON:     No, it is a matter of what it says, I agree. It
26is matter of comment and it is a matter in the end for

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 1your Lordship what its drift is.
 2     My final question is this, having regard
 3Professor Funke, to the content of those little extracts
 4that we have from the meeting at Hagenau, yes? According
 5to your knowledge of right-wing extremism and neo-Naziism
 6in Germany, are these sorts of things which are said here,
 7whether by Mr Irving or by Mr Zundel, are they in any way
 8characteristic of the views and attitudes of neofascists
 9in Germany?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I have to give a differentiated answer. It is in that
11intensity of radical racist anti-Semitism, not a common
12language of all right-wingers. Parts of the right-wing
13extremists are more soft alluding to some aspects of what
14I said is a second anti-Semitism. So they criticise
15Galinski and nowadays Jewish leaders.
16     So this kind of openly rage-based anti-Semitism,
17this full scale of contempt like in the word Juden Pack,
18this absolutely cynicism with which Irving is referring to
19the most deep causing sorrows of the people of the Jewish
20descent, this kind of extreme radical racist, post
21Holocaust anti-Semitism is more at the core of these
22groups that I call neo-National Socialists and those who
23are influenced as skinheads, as youngsters by these
24groupings, and what I have to say, according to social
25sciences surveys that are done in the Institute of anti-,
26to analyse anti-Semitism in Berlin is that this kind of

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 1radical anti-Semitism, let us say where it is researched
 2in the Branbuch area around Berlin is widespread within
 3these circles. So you have on different levels,
 4especially among male youngsters of middle education, you
 5have this kind of anti-Semitism widespread. This is the
 6very reason that the amount of destroying Jewish
 7cemeteries, for example, the very well-known Wiesensee
 8Cemetery or the grave, is it right, the grave of Heinz
 9Galinski by a bomb attack, that this is caused by this
10kind of widespreading new kind of aggressive anti-Semitism
11within these circles.
12 MR RAMPTON:     Thank you very much indeed, Professor.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think that should go, just so that we know
14where it is, in tab 15 of RWE 2, page?
15 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, page 18A and B but only the Hagenau bit
16because attached to it is some Munich, I think. The
17Leuchter conference -- well, that is Munich. Oh, a
18different Leuchter. It is not the Leuchter Congress. It
19is the Leuchter Conference.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
21 MR IRVING:     My Lord, may I question for five minutes, please?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Of course. One of the documents was the
23letter to Dr Frey?
24 MR IRVING:     Yes, on each of those documents, but in reverse
25order. I think that is the most helpful.
26 < Further Cross-Examined by Mr Irving.

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