Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 28: Electronic Edition

Pages 186 - 190 of 204

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    Thank you. There is one other document and it is my last
 1intelligently transcribe. The date of this I think is
 2sometime in November 1989 or something like that, 12th
 3November 1989, that is right.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Where is it going to go?
 5 MR RAMPTON:     It had better go in tab 15 of the second volume,
 6my Lord, 18A.
 7 MR IRVING:     My Lord, these heavily redacted excerpts of dubious
 8provenance.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     They not dubious. They were done by the lady who
10is the interpreter over there. There is nothing the least
11bit dubious about it.
12 MR IRVING:     It is the redaction that I am worried about and the
13editing of the cuts.
14 MR RAMPTON:     We can take that up later.
15 MR IRVING:     I think this is the time it should be taken up.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I think that is right.
17 MR IRVING:     We do not know what use Mr Rampton is going to make
18of them.
19 MR RAMPTON:     If I may ask the Interpreter, this will clear this
20up. Is there anything on the tape which is not in this
21paper?
22 THE INTERPRETER:     This is a full transcript and translation of
23anything that was on the tape and that was audible and
24identifiable.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I see. At the end we have the whole of the
26tape in German, is that right?

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 1 THE INTERPRETER:     The parts in italics are transcription and
 2the non-italic text is the translation of those passages.
 3 MR IRVING:     My Lord, this is the transcript of the thrice
 4redacted tape about which your Lordship was already raised
 5eyebrows.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think what I am going to do is let
 7Mr Rampton carry on, because I suspect it would be
 8desirable that Professor Funke's evidence is concludeed
 9this evening.
10 MR RAMPTON:     Exactly.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If you think you have been taken out of
12context, you can revert to this without the need for a
13witness. All right.
14 MR IRVING:     With your Lordship's leave I shall remain standing
15in case I wish to object.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think you need to take that course.
17 MR RAMPTON:     I will carry on.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Carry on, on that footing that Mr Irving can
19come back.
20 MR RAMPTON:     If there is anything he thinks is fishy about this
21or there is more he wants by all means.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is not fish. It is just we have not got
23the whole of it.
24 MR RAMPTON:     I know.
25 MR IRVING:     My Lord, because you rightly objected to the
26introduction of this heavily edited tape yesterday in that

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 1form, and we agreed to use it on the basis of a rogues
 2gallery, and now through the back door they are trying to
 3slide this transcript under the door to us ----
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am actually giving you give a bit of an
 5indulgence, because I am saying you can come back to this
 6if you need to, not this evening, I mean whenever it is
 7convenient to you, with the rest that is missing that has
 8been redacted.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     Anything he likes. If I had the whole recording
10of that meeting, nobody would be more delighted than
11I, but I have not. There is no doubt that these people
12are who they are, and there is no doubt that this, amongst
13other things, is what they say either, so far as I know.
14 MR IRVING:     The implication is given of course that I am
15present while all these things are being said and putting
16up with it.
17 MR RAMPTON:     Most of what is said here is said by Mr Irving and
18it is upon what Mr Irving says ----
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Lets press on. Mr Irving ----
20 MR RAMPTON:     --- that I chiefly rely.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- if you would just bear with Mr Rampton.
22He is going to go through it. You can come back to this
23later if you think it is appropriate. Yes, Mr Rampton.
24 MR RAMPTON:     Then there is something about Zundel on the top
25part of the page: "Surprised to encounter my very special
26friend Ernest Zundel", I do know who that was, something

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 1in French. Translator: "If I had known I was going to
 2find Zundel here I would have brought him a present".
 3Cut. Then we get speaker and I can tell your Lordship
 4this is Zundel. Then the German is transcribed and it is
 5then translated as follows. Please, Professor, follow the
 6translation by looking at the German, if you will.
 7     "We decent Germans, wallowing in this dirt",
 8yes?
 9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Pigsty"?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, right.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Sow stall. "Und fullen" is wallowing, is it?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Right.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "This base lie against our people", yes?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Folk, people, yes.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Which this Jewish rabble", Judenpack "has been spreading,
17I have had it up to here"?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Right.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Is that a good translation, in your view?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, definitely.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Thank you. Then we get Mr Irving speaking in German, and
22translated on the next page.
23 MR IRVING:     We have had all this put to us in the video
24yesterday, my Lord. Why is he having a second bite of the
25cherry?
26 MR RAMPTON:     Because I am going to ask ----

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We have not got the question yet.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     We had not had the transcript yesterday. We had
 3the tape and now I want to look at the words. Then I will
 4ask a question. "And it was once again a one-man gas
 5chamber, a one-man gas chamber carried around through the
 6Polish countryside by two soldiers looking for the odd
 7Jew, literally for individual Jews. This one-man gas
 8chamber looked somewhat like sadan chair, I believe, but
 9it was camouflaged as a telephone box, and one asks
10oneself: How did they get the poor soul of a victim to
11enter this one-man gas chamber voluntarily? Answer: There
12was probably a telephone bell inside it and it rang and
13the soldiers told him: "I think that's for you". Cut to
14laughing audience.
15 MR IRVING:     My Lord, cut to laughing audience implies that the
16audience was laughing at that, and it was just a piece of
17laughing audience sliced in there. So I object to the
18phrase "cut to".
19 MR RAMPTON:     Professor Funke, we know that at this meeting,
20because we saw them on the screen were Mr Faurisson, nice
21Mr Zundel, Christian Worch, Judge Staglich, Mr Irving of
22course, and we were not sure but we thought maybe Arthur
23Butz and Karl Philipp, do you remember?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If remarks of that kind, one might call it a joke in the
26very worst possible taste, I do not know, if a joke of

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