Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 28: Electronic Edition

Pages 181 - 185 of 204

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    I mean because of the subtle strategical tone in this
 1core of those activism of right-wingers in the early 90s.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then I will in the light of that answer show you, if
 3I may, the Halle transcript. I am afraid here we have not
 4had time to transcribe the German, but we have translated
 5it directly off the tape on to the page, which clever
 6people can do.
 7 MR IRVING:     Is this my transcript or your transcript?
 8 MR RAMPTON:     No, this is one we did last night directly from
 9the tape. I have already said.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Where are we going to put this, Mr Rampton?
11 MR RAMPTON:     It maybe could go no the Worch section of RWE 2
12which is section 11 I think.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If somebody can provide the page?
14 MR RAMPTON:     26A and B.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     26A, yes.
16 MR RAMPTON:     I would like you, Dr Funke, it is was done very
17quickly, I know, we have not got the German, but I would
18like you to look at the bottom of the page seven lines up,
19at the end of line he says: "I as an Englishman", have
20you got that?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "I as an Englishman must say I am really jealous of what
23will happen to Germany in the next five or ten or fifteen
24years", remember those figures?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then in brackets applause?

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 1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Does the applause in this context for these sorts of
 3words, does the applause surprise you or not?
 4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Does it?
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Does the applause surprise you or not?
 6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "In the next ten years you will get back the
 8(unintelligible word) Eastern areas which today
 9(unintelligible phrase). You will probably gain the
10financial, the economic hegemony over all the previously
11lost countries of the former Soviet empire. The
12Germans ... apparent cut, there you have to be careful
13because then the foreign countries, then the western
14powers, will do everything to prevent this happening, even
15when today the Federal Chancellor Kohl speaks about
16apparent cut, the future of England can only be secured in
17common friendship with the new Germany. In this sense
18I stand by the parole, we might say the phrase, Germany
19first, cheers and shouts of sieg heil".
20 MR IRVING:     "First" is wrong. It is "forward".
21 MR RAMPTON:     "Germany forwards". Are you reading on? Then
22Worch makes an appreciative speech. How do you
23characterize, Professor Funke, those kinds of sentiments
24to an audience of this nature?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It plays with this greater Germany feelings of that kind
26of people. Clearly it refers before to the matter of the

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 1Third Reich, the so-called matter of the Third Reich, to
 2Rudolf Hess, a man of peace, who did the peace, according
 3to Irving, with England, so then there is a reference to
 4the joint, you know, venture he is up to between the white
 5England and the white dominated or what have you Germany
 6to have a hegemony over the always criticised East, the
 7Bolshevik and post-Bolshevik East. It is alluding to the
 8former critics to the Soviet empire. There you have again
 9these kind of ideas how to manage it to have this greater
10Germany. It includes a kind of implication that this
11cannot be without very intense conflicts with the western
12Allies or Western nations in the whole. So this is a
13phrase that also you have again and again, that there will
14be some kind of conflict, even war, be it internally or be
15it internationally, and here you have a kind of subtle
16hint that they will do it, the bigger Germany, the greater
17German activists will do it, and it will cause conflicts
18with the Western nations. I have to say as a political
19scientist that of course the border thing in Europe of 89
20follows, is one of the most debated and dangerous things
21we have, and this is true, as you know, also for the last
22century. Gottfried Kussel, for example, said in this very
23Halle, you know, meeting just before this event happened
24that, if it is necessary, I do not want it, but if it is
25necessary, we will have an internal war; we will have a
26civil war in these countries, and as an Austrian he refers

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 1to Germany and Austria.
 2     So you have this kind of war-mongering or at
 3least implicationing of wars in this whole right-wing
 4extremist utterances.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Thank you. There is only one other thing about this
 6script or transcript, translation. On the second page it
 7says: "The future of England can only be secured in common
 8friendship with the new Germany." You talked about the
 9white England. Am I right, correct me if my history is
10wrong, did Hitler have an idea that England was the
11repository of some kind of pure Aryan race with whom he
12would like to be friends?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, it was always his wavering not to be faced with a war
14with Great Britain, and in that sense these kind of white
15Aryan feelings are widespread also during the Nazi period
16and especially Hitler himself.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Just before we leave this document which representing
18Mr Irving's words we think in Halle in 1991, just look at
19the top of the page. In the light of the answers you gave
20earlier, well, we start at the top of Mr Irving's speech:
21"My dear Germans, I have known you for 30 years since
22I worked here for a year as steelworker in West Germany,
23and I as the first historian in the world wrote a book
24about the destruction of the German city, the middle
25German city Dresden, therefore, I have no fear to write
26the truth about what we, the English, committed against

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 1the German people in terms of war crimes during the Second
 2World War. I welcome it." Then there is applause and
 3cheers. Does that surprise you, Professor Funke?
 4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No, not at all. It shows, especially for these people, a
 5clear identification with this kind of greater Germany
 6thing, this kind of Nazi past, the past of heroic things,
 7whereas, so to speak, those who realize the reasons of the
 8more political and military defeat of national socialism,
 9they in a way say in different forms, that of course this
10Second World War by Churchill and the Americans, and even
11the Soviets, had to be done to crush Adolf Hitler down.
12This is, so to speak, the alternative level consensus of
13postwar Germany.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Thank you.
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Only because of that, just to put another sentence to it,
16only because of this defeat there was a chance to rebuild
17democracy, and that means especially the recognition of
18human dignity of the basic human rights.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Thank you. There is one other document and it is my last
20topic in re-examination, Professor Funke, that I want you
21to look at. You remember that there was quite a lot of
22cross-examination about the meeting in what I call Hagenau
23because it is a French town but what Mr Irving calls
24Hagenau, I would like to show you, if I may, a part
25transcript and part translation, I say "part transcript
26and part translation" because that is all there is we can

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