Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 28: Electronic Edition

Pages 176 - 180 of 204

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is it the top page a translation of what
 2comes later?
 3 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, the top page takes us down to -- I must use
 4my own copy otherwise I get lost.
 5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     There is a red line somewhere.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The red line is mine. Can I have mine back. Does the
 7English, Dr Funke, take us down to the words on the first
 8page of the German: (German spoken - document not
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Right. I will read the entire ----
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Your red line.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     My read line, yes. That is right. First of all, please,
14it is sent by in Irving from Keywest in Florida to Dr Frey
15and to his lawyer, Dr Von Spranger, yes?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     One sees that it is dated 30th January 1991.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Frey is the publisher, is that right?
19 MR RAMPTON:     It is what?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is Frey publisher?
21 MR RAMPTON:     No, Frey is the head of the DVU.
22 MR IRVING:     He is also a publisher.
23 MR RAMPTON:     He may also be a publisher but that is by the way
24for present purposes. Dr Spranger I think is lawyer both
25for Mr Irving and for Christian Worch.
26 MR IRVING:     My Lord, will you let me re-cross on this?

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is a new document and I will, yes.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. Is there any significance in the date, do
 3you think, Professor Funke, of 30th January?
 4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     In the circumstances of the court issue, of course, it is
 5a day when Adolf Hitler got into power in 1933.
 6 MR IRVING:     I do not see the date. Where is the date?
 7 MR RAMPTON:     The 30th January 1991.
 8 MR IRVING:     The letter is dated?
 9 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, 30th January 1991. The temperature, in which
10we may be interested, was 28 degrees centigrade or
11Celsius, perhaps that does not matter. We have left that
12off the translation.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, you have not, you have just put it on the
14next line.
15 MR RAMPTON:     Sorry. I do not know what the message was to
16which this was a reply, but plainly, you may think,
17Dr Funke, it is what one might call a scenario draft,
18whatever you call it, for a speech, because what the third
19line says in English is, or an article it might be, I do
20not know: "The topic will be Germany's new role as great
21power", is that right?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Right.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If you want to follow in German, please do, beginning:
24"I come late but honestly. Furthermore, I intend" --
25this is not supposed to be literary, so Mr Irving may not
26like it -- "Furthermore, I intend initially to point to my

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 1prophecy of 3.10.89!" Why, in your view, Dr Funke, the
 2exclamation mark behind the date?
 3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Because a year later there was a formal unification act at
 43rd October '90. Maybe this is the reason.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Am I right that Adolf Hitler made a speech in the
 6Reichstag, a rather famous speech, on 30th January 1939?
 7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Oh, yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And did he in that speech repeat what he had said on the
 93rd October 1989 -- I mean ----
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Oh, yes.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, let us start again. In 1938?
12 MR IRVING:     I hope it gets better than this.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, Mr Irving.
14 MR RAMPTON:     Well, I think it does, if I may say so.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, I hope so.
16 MR RAMPTON:     Start again. There was a famous speech by Adolf
17Hitler on 30th January 1939 in the Reichstag?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Did he in that speech repeat something he had said on 3rd
20October 1938?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     He referred to if there is a war then this will cause much
22damage to the Jews.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Is it unfair in the light of these dates to see Mr Irving
24standing in one of those smart Nazi uniforms while he
25makes this prophecy?
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think we will move on.

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     I will go on. I want to be serious now.
 2 MR IRVING:     In view of the fact that I have hurried through my
 3own cross-examination in order to make space for
 4re-examination, I am beginning to regret it.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us move on anyway.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     "Made at a press conference in Berlin, namely that
 7Germany would be reunited within 12 months", and that is a
 8prophecy which came true. "My reputation as prophet being
 9confirmed, I will allow myself some prognoses for the
10coming five, ten, fifteen years. Within these I see the
11possibility of a conversion of the Austrian economy to
12German marks, a political drawing together of the German
13speaking peoples of Europa" or Europe?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Europe.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "The emergence of a German economic community with an
16incredible potential for the German mark within the next
17ten years, with the possibility of gradually outplaying
18the EEC. Germany would use this economic power in order
19to help the backward countries in the East of Europe,
20therefore expand a kind of German empire", "imperium"
21I think is the word?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "In the East. The German economic hegemony would then, in
24the course of ten to twenty years, extend to Poland, the
25Ukraine, White Russia and the original German sphere of
26interest the Baltic States. Within the framework of a

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 1just settlement with Warsaw, in which the partial
 2repayment of the Polish debts should play a not
 3insignificant role, it would result in a return of the
 4German Eastern territories, only sparsely settled by Poles
 5anyway. In the framework of a partnership with the Russia
 6people, but mind you not the criminal Soviet
 7government" -- January 1991? Well, never mind. "It would
 8also result in a blossoming of the Russian economy and a
 9return of Kalingrad and Northeast Prussia to Germany. In
10this context the events in Latvia play a role that can
11barely be overestimated".
12     Assume, if you will, Dr Funke for the moment
13that that was going to form the topic of an article or a
14speech amongst one of these right-wing groups in Germany,
15how do you calculate its likely popularity?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I mean because of the subtle strategical tone in this
17piece, it may be perceived as a kind of authoritative
18speech to this audience, because what is done in this
19piece is to take the economic strategies, the economic
20widening of the influence of the German mark area, to get
21to a political resettling of borders and this is the point
22that people of that kind of camp are interested in, you
23know, to re-arrange the borders in Eastern and near
24Eastern, central East Europe, and using conflicts between
25the ethnics, different ethnics with respect to the German
26ethnic interests or resettling aspects. So this is to the

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