Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 28: Electronic Edition

Pages 171 - 175 of 204

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You told us that anti-Semitism is one of the notable
 2features of this convergence?
 3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Right.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Of which obviously a feature is Holocaust denial. You
 5have explained that too. Mr Irving said, and you agreed
 6with him, that when he goes to Germany he does not talk
 7only about Holocaust denial, yes?
 8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Right.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can I ask you whether any of the following things form
10any, from your knowledge of this topic, this field, any of
11the following things form any part of right-wing extreme
12or neo-Nazi policy or ideology. First, to try to
13absolve -- do you know that word, excuse -- excuse the
14Nazis of blame for the outbreak of the Second World War,
15is that part of it or not?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, of course.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     That is the question of so-called allein Schuld.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Which is?
20 THE INTERPRETER:     Exclusive guilt.
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
22 MR RAMPTON:     Do they have a tendency at all to try to blame
23Winston Churchill for the outbreak of war?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Rampton, can I interrupt because I am not
25quite sure what you are asking. You are asking about
26topics which do not come within the umbrella of Holocaust

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 2 MR RAMPTON:     It has an end result.
 3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes. Yes, of course they questioned the role of Churchill
 4to degree that they attack the role of, you know, reacting
 5to the aggression that was done by the Hitler regime in
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do they tend in any way to focus rather on so-called
 8allied atrocities or war crimes such as the bombing of
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     There is often the case that there is a kind of
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, they try to make a balance?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     To minimise the own atrocities.
14 THE INTERPRETER:     They are setting one off against the other.
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
16 MR RAMPTON:     What I in this court have called a false
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, it is criticised, this kind of revisionists
19historians are criticised exactly with this kind of
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do they have any tendency to glorify what they see as Nazi
22war heroes?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     This is very much the case, if I go through the 70s
24already and the 80s you have always this kind of appraisal
25of war heroes, of Judet, of Ruddell, of Dall, of Rommel,
26those who are identified with the Nazi cause and those who

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 1are not identified but.
 2 THE INTERPRETER:     "Praise" rather than "appraisal".
 3 MR RAMPTON:     Do they include General Remer in this galaxy of
 5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     He is one of the most accepted heroes in that camp,
 6because, as you may recall, of his courage to crush down
 7the coup, the attempt of the resistance fighters within
 8the Army of 20th July, 44, around Stuffenberg, Gurdella
 9and others.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do they ever speak of the prospects of establishing a
11greater Germany?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Of course we did not tackle that too much. This is of
13course the centre of their belief system, that they have
14to renew a greater Germany. We more addressed the
15attention to the so-called second revolution of the Kuhnen
16connection, but the broader perspective is of course to
17build a new or greater Germany that extends the borders of
18Germany now that are internationally accepted.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do they propose what the ethnic or racial composition of
20this greater Germany will be?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     They include normally so-called ethnic Germans, Germans by
22ethnic dissent, or they even say by Aryan race dissent, if
23it is possible to say by Aryan race dissent.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In which geographical direction do they tend to see this
25expansion, Westwards, Eastwards, South, North?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Especially to the East, to the Northeast, to the East and

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 1to a degree to the Southeast.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     To include what, for example, the parts of the Reich that
 3were formed after the invasion of Poland?
 4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, this is the main cause. This has always have been
 5the cause in the right-wing circles and beyond in the
 6right-wing extremist circles to attack the borderline in
 7the ----
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The Odanisa(?) Line we call it.
 9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     How do you call it?
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The Odanisa line.
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Finally this. Do they ever make a claim or a proposal
13that the Germans should be compensated, for example, by
14the Poles, for the land which the Poles have occupied
15since the end of the war?
16 MR IRVING:     I cannot really see the point of all this.
17 MR RAMPTON:     You will in a moment.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think it is fair.
19 MR RAMPTON:     You will in a moment.
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, they say this is almost not so densely populated
21areas, so they can move or they try to rebuild German
22ethnic circles, and one of these people we are talking
23about were very active to do so in the Kalingrad area, for
24example, but also in the Baltic states, and especially in
25Silesia and in West Prussia, in former Silesia I have to
26say, in the West part of Poland.

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     Thank you very much. Now I think I would like you
 2to look at a document, will you please. My Lord, this is
 3in RWE at tab 7, page 81. It is part of the Frey
 4section. What I am going to do, if I may, is hand up a
 5clip containing the German and an English translation of
 6the relevant part, the first part of the German.
 7 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I am not sure this is proper material for
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not know what it is yet.
10 MR RAMPTON:     This is an Irving document.
11 MR IRVING:     That does not make it necessarily proper material
12for re-examination.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is true. Let us hear what it is and
14then we can make up ----
15 MR RAMPTON:     It arises directly out of Mr Irving's suggestion
16that he does not talk only about Holocaust denial when he
17is Germany.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If it does that seems to me to be legitimate.
19 MR IRVING:     I have no objection.
20 MR RAMPTON:     Of course your Lordship will remember that our
21case is not simply that Mr Irving is a racist and an
22anti-Semite, but that he is a right-wing extremist with
23sympathies, deep sympathies for the Nazi regime. This is
24directly relevant to that. Have you seen this before,
25Professor Funke? Look at the German document.
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Oh, yes I saw.

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