Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 28: Electronic Edition

Pages 166 - 170 of 204

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    He says this: "In this Holocaust religion is gaining
 1one asks themselves that question because you simply do
 2not question a religion, it is a sort of blasphemy." Do
 3you see any resonance or similarity between what Mr Irving
 4there said and what he said in the middle of page 69 of
 5your report?
 6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Oh, yes. It is a kind of attacking what he calls a
 7legend, or what he may call also a lie, that became a
 8religion, so-called religion, of millions of honest
 9people. So it is a kind of way of thinking that because
10he says the essence of the Holocaust is a lie, and the
11people do not believe that it is a lie, but it is the
12truth, this truth is a religion.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The whole story?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     The whole story.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The whole story --
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     The whole history of the Holocaust is a religion. They
17believe in, although it is not true in the essence, and
18this goes with a lot of -- and to say this is a kind of
19blasphemy is, of course, a very cynical reference, cynical
20sentence to those who really survived, and still are
21living, and, of course, to those who died by this mass
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     -- it is that, that sort of sentiment, is it, which German
24law does not permit, the expression of that kind of
25sentiment in public which German law forbids?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, this is right. It was done again, and again it was a

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 1bit sharpened in the 1980s. It was a bit changed in the
 2middle of 1990s because of the experience of late 1990s
 3and the early 1990s, and the people in Germany, the
 4authorities in Germany, are very aware of what these kinds
 5of sayings meant to people who still or have lived at that
 6periods of time as survivors. One of them is the famous
 7Heinz Kaminsky of the Jewish community in Berlin, who
 8asked, because of this kind of sorrow, because of this
 9kind of cynicism that they, the Jews in Germany after 1945
10experienced, to sharpen a bit these laws, as a kind of
11acknowledgment that it happened.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Sorry, carry on.
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     As a kind of acknowledgment, recognition.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     To these people that had happened, that the German people,
16the German public, is aware that this is done by German
17authorities between 1933 and 1945, and what you can call
18is a kind of second anti-Semitism is exactly to attack
19this experience of those who survived. This is again a
20very aggressive behaviour to those.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Is that one that I think you told us when you first
22started giving evidence, that one is one of the strands or
23elements in right-wing neo-Nazi policy, ideology,
24statement in Germany?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     This is at the core. For example, at even DVU
26presentation of Otto Butz, Hoax of the Century, that with

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 1this presentation it goes very aggressive behaviour in
 2this newspapers against all representatives, all sorts,
 3all kinds of representatives of the Jewish community in
 4these days. So we have a combination of this kind of
 5denial of the memory, not only the denial of the Holocaust
 6itself, but the memory of those survived, with the alleged
 7financial and political mysterious strategies of the
 8Jewish community after 1945. So you have a combination of
 9the old racist anti-Semitism of the years before 1945,
10used now as a kind of second anti-Semitism, to attack the
11people who survived in Germany and who are, as Jewish
12community or Jewish individuals still, you know, nowadays
13in the public.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, well, now Mr Irving in this connection, and what
15I have to ask next flows directly from your last answer,
16Mr Irving put it to you that he did not break the law when
17he was in Germany. He went out of his way to keep on the
18right side of the law, I am paraphrasing; do you remember
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Would you look at at page 106 of your report, please?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You write in the third line: "In Canada in October 1991
24Irving told his audience that the Bavarian Ministry of
25Justice whom Irving described in the same speech as
26the 'extended arm" of 'you know who'", and then Funke puts

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 1in brackets, "i.e. the Jewish people". Do you have any
 2reason to revise that parenthesis Professor Funke, the
 3Jewish people?
 4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No, I have not.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No. Then comes: "Wanted to talk to me about certain
 6things I have done and said in Germany. Well, what I do
 7and say in Germany unfortunately does violate the law in
 8Germany. I am well aware of that, and I go round from
 9meeting place to meeting place in Germany now quite
10voluntarily sticking my neck out, because Germany is one
11of the most difficult places in the world to speak now".
12     Professor Funke, speak about what, is my
13question? About what is it difficult to speak in Germany
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, especially about his revised version of the Holocaust
16Nazi period.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     One small point in passing. Mr Irving was putting it to
18you that the Munich city authorities had done something or
19other, and he used the form of words: "The Munich city
20authorities of the German Reich"?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, I heard that.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I know you did and you showed some surprise. You said "of
23what?", and he said, "of the German Reich". Now why did
24you show surprise?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Because the German Reich is a clear defined term in
26post-Nazi Germany, to the Nazi Reich, not to any sort

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 1of ----
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     There has never been a fourth Reich?
 3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Up to now not.
 4 MR IRVING:     The actual quotation was that the Munich city
 5authorities have succeeded in getting my banned from the
 6entire German Reich.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. I think you are slightly missing --
 8well, I doubt whether they put it that way -- I think you
 9are missing the point. I did notice that Professor Funke
10was surprised.
11 MR IRVING:     It was meant to be sarcastic of course.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Was it right?
13 MR RAMPTON:     Oh was it? Very well. I will leave it in that
14condition, if I may.
15 MR IRVING:     I thought an expert in sarcasm would recognise
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We will move on.
18 MR RAMPTON:     I have to say I thought it a slip of the tongue.
19It leads to my next question, which is this. It is a
20series of questions, Professor Funke. You have told us
21that these neo-Nazi groups, right-wing extremists, there
22was a convergence in the late 80s, early 90s?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Of which the Wahrheit macht Frei event at Munich in 1990
25was a notable sort of a marker. Have I got that right?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Right.

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