Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 28: Electronic Edition

Pages 161 - 165 of 204

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    All I am anxious to establish is that this is a reference
 1to what Mr Irving said in Germany, which apparently it is,
 2now can you turn to page 5, you will find that in small
 3print at the top right hand corner of the page.
 4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I will start, if I may, with the second quote from
 6Mr Levin it is: One of your themes when you talk to an
 7audience like this is that the Holocaust never happened,
 8that the gas chambers were a fiction. Can we pause
 9there. Assuming that records the theme, or one of the
10themes that Mr Irving dealt with on this occasion in
11Hamburg, do you have any knowledge of the content of that
12speech beyond what we find in this interview?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Right. Irving: Well, those are two separate things.
15I mean by the Holocaust, do you mean the gas chambers? If
16by the Holocaust, which is this rather unpleasant kind of
17Madison Avenue image that the Jewish community have
18developed, the Holocaust with a capital H, you imagine
19that you are going to see the letter R after it as kind
20registered trademark. I am not allowed to use the word
21Holocaust in my books to describe any other tragedy. Now
22my editors say, no, that is reserved for what happened to
23the Jews.
24     Levin: But you told your audience tonight that
25the gas chambers [plural], were a fiction:
26     Irving: Oh, yes, the gas chambers are a very

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 1clear piece of propaganda, that we British very cunningly,
 2cunningly cannived at and contrived during World War II
 3and that is my considered opinion as a British historian
 4and I think in two, two or three years people will accept
 5you I am right again.
 6     Levin: The idea of the gas chambers was invented
 7by the British during the war, and then the so-called gas
 8chambers at -- again he uses the plural that perhaps not
 9his fault at Auschwitz were built by the Poles after the
10war in order to deceive people.
11 MR IRVING:     Can you read the next paragraph, please.
12 MR RAMPTON:     I am going to read the next three paragraphs,
13actually: "Certainly the gas chamber [single] that is
14shown to tourists in Poland now in Auschwitz is built by
15the Polish government after the war and the director of
16the Auschwitz museum and director of Auschwitz museum
17archives, Dr Piegel (?), has admitted this in private
18talks with other historians that it is in fact a fake."
19I am not sure that quite fair on Dr Piegel.
20 MR IRVING:     Just leave it as it is without any interspersed
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Quite right.
23 MR RAMPTON:     "Levin: It is important to you to get across to a
24German audience like this that people are told lies about
25the gas chambers [plural] or they never really happened.
26I prefer, says David Irving, I prefer the word legends.

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 1In fact, it is in fact a lie. Propaganda is basically
 2lying. What is is now going around is not a lie, it is a
 3legend. There is a difference. A legend is something
 4that people, innocent and ordinary people believe and in
 5turn retell to other innocent and ordinary people."
 6     Professor Funke, are you aware of any evidence
 7that the whole gas chamber story, the gas chambers,
 8plural, were nothing more then a clever piece of
 9propaganda that the British invented?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     There is no evidence for that.
11 MR IRVING:     Can he be asked if he is aware of any evidence that
12what is shown to the tourists is a fake or
14 MR RAMPTON:     That is common ground, Mr Irving, we all know that
15it is a reconstruction, the Stammlager gas chamber at
16Auschwitz, that never been in contention.
17 MR IRVING:     Never been in contention?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Never been in contention, the only only
19question is whether --
20 MR RAMPTON:     If Mr Irving had read Professor van Pelt's report
21properly he would have understood that it was never in
22contention --
23 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I was fined $20,000 for saying that, that
24is the contention in my book.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Honestly, I attach no importance, I am
26afraid, it must be painful for you, but it is not relevant

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 1to my task that you were fined, and I know perfectly well
 2what was constructed at Auschwitz, and, personally, as
 3I have told you before, and I will say it again, I see
 4nothing remotely objectionable. But to say that they are
 5all dummies seems to me to be different matter altogther.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     Yes and all invention of British propaganda, that
 7is what Mr Rampton --
 8 MR IRVING:     I am answering in terms here, one gas chamber --
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You can make that comment later on, this is
10re-examination, so do not --
11 MR IRVING:     If I can comment later on.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, please.
13 MR RAMPTON:     Now one of the things that you were cross-examined
14about, Professor Funke, is to be found at page 69 of your
15report. Again, I do not remember offhand whether or not
16this was challenged, in paragraph 5.3.27.
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Just a second.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So sorry, you will need to keep that file K3 for just a
19moment. We need page 69 of your report.
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes I have both. Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Before you go to the indented quotation there is some
22German in square brackets (German spoken); yes?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Above that you it is translated at: "The letter was
25headed with a quote from Irving, hundreds of millions of
26honest, intelligent people are being duped by extremely

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 1financially strong and brilliantly made postwar
 3     Can you turn, please, back to tab 5 of K3 and to
 4page 20, I think it is.
 5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     K3?
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Same blue file.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     K3 tab 5, it is the speech in Moers and this time
 9it is in English?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, just a second.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Tab 5, page 20, the bottom of the page. Bearing in mind
12as you look at this what we just read in your report on
13page 69, which you attributed Mr Irving, we see this, and
14this is Mr Irving speaking, this is his speech at Moers on
159th March 1990.
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In the middle of the page there is a line which
18begins "and this Holocaust religion"; do you see that?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     He says this: "In this Holocaust religion is gaining
21credence in the meantime, has hundreds of millions of
22credible and decent people, millions of Jews amongst them,
23firmly believing that 6 million of their co-religionists
24were murdered and no one is asking them the important
25question: How come there are so many millions of Jews
26again if so many millions of them are exterminated? No

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