Irving v. Lipstadt

    Very well. Would you now just have a brief look at
 1We will go through these very quickly. Photographs 1 and
 22 are photographs of a meeting of the DVU. Can you see
 3their flag around the podium?
 4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No, not with this coverage, I mean.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     All right.
 6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I cannot see.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     If you look at the people sitting in the audience there,
 8can you see any skinheads or bovver boots?
 9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I cannot see. It is so dark, you see, your Lordship. I
10cannot see it. Maybe ----
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Look at page 2. It is better.
12 MR IRVING:     Perhaps you can borrow mine a second.
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     That is better, excuse me.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you see any skinheads or bovver boots or musclemen?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I cannot say yes or no, because, you know, in the first,
16in the first lines they are all with ties and, you know,
17as DVU presents itself.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     And the next photograph is a bit clearer?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     But I cannot say yes to your question because afterwards
20it is totally unclear and I know that DVU has this kind of
21skinhead appearances.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, that is that photograph.
23 MR IRVING:     Can you see any banners around the hall with
24anti-Semitic slogans or Holocaust slogans or anything at
25all?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     No banners at all?
 2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     The next photograph, page 3, please?
 4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     3?
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does this appear to be police protecting a rather pleasant
 6country building against a number of young people?
 7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It seems to.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     What is it?
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is in Cologne. I will have to tell you, you will have
11to just take my word for where these places are. The
12places are not important really. The next photograph,
13photograph 5 -- we will just go through them very quickly
14-- is the Congress Centre in Hamburg?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Right.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you see again a line of police protecting the building
17against, no doubt, unfriendly people outside?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I cannot say unfriendly, I just see police caps.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Shoulder to shoulder, massed against -- protecting the
20entrance to the building?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I cannot say anything else because it is unclear. I do
22not know where and when, so...
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     You may say.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you like to have a look at photograph No. 9,
26please? This is the Palace of Culture from Dresden which

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 1is one of the lectures you refer to, 13th February 1990,
 2I think. There are no kinds of banners or placards or
 3anything anywhere, are there?
 4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It seems not. There is a picture, you know, I think you
 5are speaking there, and ----
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     And a picture of myself on the podium?
 7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, seems to, but I do not know what is written around,
 8above and...
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, we cannot read that.
10 MR IRVING:     Photograph No. 10 is obviously some years earlier?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does it look as though I am addressing members of the
13German Bundeswehr that this is obviously a function ----
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, seems to, at least the uniforms they are wearing.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Photograph No. 11 is the Leuchter press conference to
16which you refer. It is a sparsely attended press
17conference?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Where is it?
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you got photograph No. 11?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, but where?
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is in my home in London.
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     OK.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Photograph 12, another typical speech that I address in
24Germany?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Where is it?
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is somewhere in Battenwurtenburg, Singlfingen,

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 1I think?
 2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Is it Dria?
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     I beg your pardon?
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, it does not really matter, does it?
 5I am not sure these photographs are helping all that much,
 6Mr Irving.
 7 MR IRVING:     There are no placards, no skinheads. No. 14,
 8I think you probably have my labels now?
 9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, Hagenau you say?
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     No. 14 is Hagenau.
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you see any of your suspects in that photograph?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     What are you saying?
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Any of your suspects, like Remer or Kussel or any of these
15names you are talking about? Are they in that photograph
16or the next one?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I have to put up this...
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     These photographs were all available for discovery, my
19Lord, and not used. Photograph No. 16 ----
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Wait, wait. I have to see the people. Excuse me. It is
21not so easy. You know better. It is just 10 faces to 10
22faces, right, to see and whatever 80, I cannot see.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you say it is a very extremist just by the look of
24it?
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, you cannot possibly answer from the
26backs of people's heads whether they are extremist.

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 1 MR IRVING:     Precisely. Your Lordship has made exactly the
 2point I was hoping that the witness would make.
 3Photograph 16, is that the Lowebrau Bierhall in Munich?
 4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I do not know, maybe.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Obviously dressed up for some kind of function, listening
 6to me speak?
 7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Where is it? When is it?
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     In Munich.
 9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     When is it?
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Probably about 1984, thereabouts, 1989. That again is the
11kind of audience -- they do not look particularly extreme
12or violent?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     In '94 you were in Germany?
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     No, '84. No. 17, there is a meeting to which you refer.
15Is it not a demonstration, photograph No. 17?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     German historians, liars and cowards?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Who is the left person?
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is Mr Pedro Varela. Do you recognise him?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     OK.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Does he look like a violent person or extreme?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, again....
23 MR IRVING:     The point is it is difficult to judge by
24appearances. I mean, I might be violent or extreme. The
25point I am trying to make, witness, and would you agree
26with, is, it is difficult to tell when you look at an

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