Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 28: Electronic Edition

Pages 156 - 160 of 204

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 1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Recites something that Mr Irving said at a place called
 3Moers; where is Moers?
 4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It is in the western part of Germany.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     On 9th March 1990, could the witness see, well, let me
 6please just first read how you translate it at the bottom
 7of page 63 and the top of page 64. There is a reference
 8to Auschwitz, Mr Irving says: But the dummies are still
 9standing in Auschwitz because the German government has no
10sway there and understandably that is a problem for you,
11that you have a government in Bonn that allows its own
12people to be defamed by all countries of the world,
13although in the meantime it has cried out that these
14things in Auschwitz and probably in Mydanik, Treblinka and
15in other so-called extermination camps in the East are all
16dummies"; who made that translation? Who made that
17translation? The German is at the bottom of the page,
18footnote 229, do you know who made that translation?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, can you look at the German at the bottom of the page
21in footnote 229. It is a video cassette.
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, video cassette, 187, David Irving in Moers.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     There cannot be any dispute about the German unless it has
24been mistranscribed. The sentence begins (German spoken)
25have you got that in a footnote?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can you read the German, please, to yourself?
 2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     To the end of sentence.
 4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And tell me whether you think, or perhaps with the help of
 6the interpreter, tell me whether you think that that is a
 7fair -- what the English says is a fair version of what
 8the German says.
 9 THE INTERPRETER:     We are just comparing the two.
10 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, please.
11 THE INTERPRETER:     I would say it should be added "they are all
12nothing but dummies".
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Nothing but?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, it is not translated literally.
15 MR IRVING:     All just dummies.
16 MR RAMPTON:     Just dummies?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     And the things --
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     All just dummies?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     -- yes, the things in Auschwitz and probably you also in
20Mydanik Treblinka and in the other death camps.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, extermination camps?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     So-called.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So-called?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     In the East, all just dummies.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mock ups, fakes, dummies. Thank you very much.
26Then we go back to page 61, if we may, paragraph

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 15.3.7, in his report on Irving's court appearance Philip
 2wrote: In his statement the researcher of contemporary
 3history, Irving, when into the Leuchter report and
 4reaffirmed his view according to which it was not
 5possible to there to have been gas chambers for killing
 6people in Auschwitz, Birkenhau or Mydarnik".
 7     Mr Irving was invited by the judge to challenge
 8that statement, the question he did not. The question I
 9have of you, have you any reason to doubt that that is an
10accurate report of what Mr Irving said?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I have no question about that.
12 MR IRVING:     My Lord, your Lordship's invitation did not refer
13to that statement, it was to another one.
14 MR RAMPTON:     Could the witness please be given file K3.
15 MR IRVING:     My Lord, is it accepted that was not a statement
16that was challenged?
17 MR RAMPTON:     I do not know.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, we certainly looked at that, and to be
19honest I actually cannot remember.
20 MR RAMPTON:     No, I cannot either, but that was my note.
21 MR IRVING:     I do not want it to go in the transcript that I
22allowed that -- specifically allowed --
23 MR RAMPTON:     Well, we can see from the transcript whether it
24was or it was not.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The transcript will tell us what has happened

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 1 MR IRVING:     There is a difference between my, for various
 2reasons not having wanted to slow up the
 3cross-examination, picking on paragraph after paragraph,
 4and specifically to declining an invitation to comment on
 5a paragraph.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     Does your Lordship have K3 in court?
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I do.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     Tab 12, please.
 9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Thank you. Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If you look at the beginning of tab 12, this is an
11interview in English between somebody called Roley Levin.
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Right.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And Mr Irving, unedited this interview, so we need not
14worry about that, dated 28th November '91, and Mr Levin
15starts off by saying: You made a very powerful speech
16tonight, what is the message you are trying to get
17across? I am sorry, what is the message you are trying to
18get across to an audience of Germans like this". So it
19looks as though, does it not, it is a reference to some
20speech that has been made in Germany. Do you happen to
21know which speech it was that it is referring to at this
22date? I could not trace it in the --
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     -- in the material I have got.
25 MR IRVING:     Could I have a copy of this while we are doing

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Have you not got K3? You have not brought it
 2with you.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     Certainly, you should have that.
 4 MR IRVING:     What is the reference again?
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     K3, tab 12. It is a television programme, is
 6it, that is the date of the television programme?
 7 MR RAMPTON:     That is the date of the interview perhaps or
 8television programme, but what Miss Rogers is suggesting,
 9I bet she is right, the film crew apparently followed
10Mr Irving round during the Halle period, which was on the
119th, and probably did an interview with him that same day.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The problem with that is the speech was
13not --
14 MR RAMPTON:     (Pause while counsel confer) She knows far more
15than I do.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Halle was in the middle of the day, was it
18 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, that is right, and apparently his speech was
19on 6th and 7th November as well.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Right, well, it may not matter anyway.
21 MR RAMPTON:     It may not matter very much, but what I am anxious
22to ----
23 THE WITNESS:     The NPD meeting in Hamburg of the 7th November?
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, that is right, that is it?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Maybe that is it.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     

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