Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 28: Electronic Edition

Pages 151 - 155 of 204

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    -- the video did not show you. It did not show that,
 1sure, because you could not leave the scene without air
 2flight as quick as he started his speech.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, so I am clear what your case is,
 4you are putting to this witness that the only connection
 5with Dienel is that one meeting at Halle and you have no
 6idea he was going to be there, and otherwise you have
 7never had any dealings with him face to face, or in
 8writing or anything of that kind?
 9 MR IRVING:     Very definitely, my Lord, and in this case your
10Lordship will see my reaction yesterday, I was totally
11astonished at any suggestion to the opposite.
12 THE WITNESS:     Yes, I believe that.
13 MR IRVING:     I think it is similar to the Thistle case (?)
14because I am in the same city, on the same day therefore I
15must have known them, shaken hands and given them a bear
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is very clear, thank you.
18 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, in fact the correct running order was, my
19Lord, Worch introduces Irving, Irving mounts the podium
20and join Dienel and Worch, speaks for a page. Worch then
21speaks for quarter a page and introduces Dienel, who then
22does his bit.
23 MR IRVING:     We might have to see that video again.
24 MR RAMPTON:     I am sure we shall have to see to again, no
25question. I shall show it again in closing this case.
26 < Re-examined by MR RAMPTON Q.C.

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 1     Can I ask you to expand on some of the last
 2evidence you gave, Professor Funke, can I put my question
 3in this way. You have spoken of the danger of right-wing,
 4extreme, or neo-fascist, neo-Nazi rabble rousers going and
 5speaking in some areas of Germany, particularly those that
 6have a sensitive economic and social context, like former
 7East Germany. If I am a rabble rouser, and I go to a poor
 8district of a place like Halle, and I address an audience
 9of skinheads, let us say, or partly of skinheads, on, for
10example, I am not saying this happened on this occasion,
11Holocaust denial, anti-Semitism; does that have any
12impact, in your judgment, from your knowledge of this area
13of life in Germany? Does that have any forward impact on
14attitudes generally towards, for example, auslander?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     There are insider reports from people who were in this
16scene and then left the scene that showed very decisively
17exactly that, that they need a kind of encouragement, if
18I may say so, to this direction, and that they have
19to encourage each other, to do the deeds they are doing
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We can be fairly banal, trite about this, can we not,
22would you describe Hitler or Goebbels as rabble rousers
23when they spoke?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So far as you know, did they ever wield a club or a gun

.   P-152

 1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No, they wore nice clothes, for example. Sometimes they
 2also appeared in various kinds of Nazi, like Nazis
 3uniforms, so it depends on the occasion.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But they did not stand on the edge of pits in the East and
 5machine gun Jews, did they, Hitler and Goebbels
 7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Can you translate that.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think there was a misunderstanding. You
 9asked about clubs or guns and you got an answer about
11 MR RAMPTON:     I think it was an answer, yes, they had nice
12uniforms, but, no, they did not shoot people.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It could have been an answer.
14 MR RAMPTON:     Is that right?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Say it again.
16 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, they had nice uniforms, but, no, they did not
17shoot people?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No, not in this period, in this stagings, of course, not.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I mean themselves personally? They shot themselves at the
20end, I know that?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     So far we know not.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So far as we know.
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Right.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can we go back a bit, please, and do you have your report
25there? I want to deal, if I may, with Mr Irving's
26repeated suggestion that he has never spoken of the

.   P-153

 1non-existence of gas chambers except in terms of
 2Auschwitz, and Auschwitz alone. So I would like you to
 3look at some material. At the top of page 55 you quote in
 4English from an interview with Mr Irving reported in a
 5magazine called Code for December 1989, yes?
 6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I think we find that article in H5.1(i) if you like at
 8page 324?
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This is the one we looked at before.
10 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, but I want to ask about a different part.
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     H5 and then?
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     H5(i).
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     OK.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I would like you to look at the bottom of the first
15column, page 324, sorry, you are quite right.
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     54 of the actual magazine.
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You have got it. Under the heading (German spoken) yes?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Excuse my German. Now, could you just read to yourself,
22not out loud, from "journalist" down to the end of first
23quote for Mr Irving?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     OK.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Again, with the word (German spoken) and tell us what it

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 1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     The journalist refers to eyewitnesses, that especially in
 2the last days of war there should have been the gassing
 3very intense before the liberation of the camp. Irving
 4answers according to the official version of history, in
 5October 1944, the gassing ended and then he adds: But why
 6scientific researches are not taken into account of
 7"laborisgeschaft" (?).
 8 MR IRVING:     Forensic?
 9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Forensic, right, and then the next sentence is: The result
10of this forensic research is clear. There were no mass --
11 MR RAMPTON:     Killings?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     -- killings by poison gas.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Thank you. You take that to be a general statement or
14specific to Auschwitz?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     This is related, so far I gather it, to the forensic
16researches, but the sentence itself says as (German
17spoken), there were no mass killings by poison gas.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So it might be related to the forensic, so-called forensic
19examinations, done by Professor Leuchter at Auschwitz
20might it, do you think?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, thank you. Now I want you to look at another one.
23Pages 63 to 64.
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Of my report?
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, please. This recites as we realized as we were going
26through it, paragraph 5.3.13.

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