Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 28: Electronic Edition

Pages 146 - 150 of 204

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     The year before that, right?
 2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I know that and I said it. I did not say anything
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Am I right in saying that you find difficulty in
 5remembering any details at all about Mr Schwierzak, any
 6concrete, meaningful details apart from vague
 8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It is not a vague association to know that he is the
 9leading person of this association, NO.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     But never prosecuted for any illegal acts?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Not personally so far.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, thank you. My Lord, he is the last person on the
13list with whom I have not dealt. We have knocked out all
14the names, effectively, except for some of the bigger
15names. Karl Philipp who is very little on ----
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, do not make a speech now. I mean, if
17that concludes your cross-examination?
18 MR IRVING:     I only want to say one more thing in winding up.
19Am I right in saying the situation in Germany is far more
20sensitive than it is in other countries as a result of the
21Second World War and the Holocaust, the political
22situation is more sensitive, is it not?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Because of several reasons, if I may answer that in that
24way? The main reason for the given period that is of
25interest with respect to the libel act is that at that
26period some groupings converted, and in the same period we

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 1had converted, came nearer to each other, converged --
 2excuse me, I got it wrong yesterday, converged -- and this
 3is especially the case for parts of the revisionist
 4movement and parts of the neoNational Socialist movement
 5and parts of the old traditional right-wing extremist
 6movement, and this took place in a sensitive moment of
 7history of postwar Germany in which the East German part
 8has to be included, integrated, what-have-you, and in that
 9period of time there was a lot of rage, a lot of vacuum of
10political order, so they could spread their influence, and
11because of that it was very sensitive, especially also to
12the authorities that were led at that time by the central,
13by the CDU FDP led government, and ----
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Now let me ask you this question ----
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     --- this is one dimension of the sensitivity. The other
16is, of course, you refer to the renewal, the necessity of
17the renewal, of the liberal democracy and the
18constitutional law system, after the total distortion of
19all the laws we had during the Nazi period.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Now, we did not have these problems in the non-Germany
21countries, did we?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     In the?
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Outside Germany, we did not have these sensitive problems,
24did we?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     In different ways, of course, but not in that way.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Let me explain what I am getting at.

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 1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     There is always a specific to it and this is the
 2specificity with respect to Germany.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would I be right, therefore, in saying that something
 4described or defined as right-wing extremism in a
 5sensitive country like Germany would merely be shrugged
 6off in England and the United States where we are much
 7more robust?
 8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I did not, I would not say this, because if you would have
 9a situation, let us say, in a given country where within
10three years 70 people were murdered by right-wing
11extremists at their activities, then there would be a
12sensitive situation for any liberal democracy in the
13world, I think.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     But we do not have that situation outside Germany, do we?
15We do not have that situation?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     We have that situation, yes, of course, in the course of
17this century, of course.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     But not in England? In England we do not have -- if
19somebody is described as a right-wing extremist in
20Germany, it has a definite kind of echo or resonance.
21People are more likely to be described as right-wing
22extremists in Germany where the situation is so sensitive
23than in England or America where we do not have this
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I am not so, I have not the same expertise on the English
26situation, but what I know is that there were not 70

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 1people in the early '90s murdered, and the Libel Act is
 2referring to the dangerousness of Holocaust deniers in a
 3given moment of time in a given country. So in that sense
 4it is specific, but it would have been also specific for a
 5country that had this same amount of violence.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Thank you. No further questions.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can I ask you one question before, if I may,
 8Mr Rampton? It is about Thomas Dienel, because I do not
 9remember any evidence about why you say there was an
10association between him and Mr Irving. Can you remember
11off the top of your head?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, just, please, I may remind you to the Halle event,
13where Thomas Dienel was one of the main organizer, aside
14from Christian Worch, this blond haired --
15 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Young --
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     -- middle aged, 40, let us say, young, person, who was on
17the podium and shouted after the -- so far as I recall,
18yes, after the end of the speech of David Irving, against,
19you know, criminal foreigners.
20 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     -- I know. Yes, thank you, I am afraid I had --
21 MR RAMPTON:     I think he was there at least once.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Beginning and the end, I think.
23 MR RAMPTON:     Yes.
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     He was before, also, if you look closely in end.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     He spoke?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     He spoke before and after.

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 1 MR IRVING:     Can I just ask two questions?
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Of course, you can.
 3 MR IRVING:     That is your only evidence for Mr Dienel being
 4involved in organizing the Halle function, is it not, that
 5he was there and that he spoke; do you have any
 6documentary evidence? Did he sign any posters or
 8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     How was it to be signed? It was said in the letters that
 9went around to prepare this and to organize this meeting
10that Dienel was the core organizer, yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Which letters are these?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     We have to look in my report, it is stated there.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Were any of these letters sent to me before the meeting?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No, I said it yesterday already that you got the
15invitation by Uschi Worch.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     On the evening before?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes. This is clear because you had, according to your
18diary, the idea to go to a different place.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     And you accept that none of the video footage we saw, none
20of the visual material that we saw shows me at any time
21together with Mr Dienel?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I mean --
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes or no?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     -- the video did not show you. It did not show that,
25because Dienel went downstage just so far as the video is
26concerned, when you went up, but you have heard him, I am

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