Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 28: Electronic Edition

Pages 141 - 145 of 204

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 1 MR IRVING:     I am preparing my cross-examination simultaneously
 2and running a family and a business.
 3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It is stated in the report, it is in your diary, and here
 4just you can, it is one page, it is a shortening, a letter
 5to Althans stating something about Schwarzik, so you did
 6not know the right name at that moment. But then a
 7circular by Plaintiff addressed, amongst others, to
 8Michael Schwierzak, again in January '92. Then the letter
 9Worch to Plaintiff suggesting to Plaintiff that Schwierzak
10might be able to provide two dates in South Germany on
11Plaintiff's tour. Letter, Worch to Plaintiff, assuring
12Plaintiff that Schwierzak can provide two dates outside
13Frauberg. Letter Schwierzak to Plaintiff. Plaintiff
14records speaking at NO meeting outside Stuttgart in
15Singlfingen. Then letter, Plaintiff to Ernst Zundel,
16complaining about NO with good reasons I have to say.
17Then Schwierzak to Plaintiff. That Schwierzak to
19     So it is all out of your disclosure, letters
20Schwierzak to Plaintiff enclosing an article that will
21surely interest you in '95. So it is between '91 and '95
22and it will refresh your memory if you read it.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Professor Funke, if somebody is receiving sometimes 100
24letters a day, right, and if somebody is writing 50
25letters a day, is he likely to remember 10 years later the
26names if the people with whom he has corresponded?

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 1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     That is why we refresh your memory.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     All right. Can I suggest that if I asked that question,
 3Mr Schwierzak is a man who played no part whatsoever in my
 4political horizon, is that likely, and then I will ask you
 5a bit about his alleged extremism which is also going to
 6be useful. In other words, let me phrase the question
 7differently. If cannot remember the man's name 10 years
 8after the event, is it likely he was very important to me
 9or to anybody else?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It depends on the structure of your memory, I have to say.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     All right.
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I do not know. Of course, it can be that you lost the
13memory about this person because ----
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you tell us what you know about this man's
15extremism? On what do you base the suggestion that he is
16an extremist in the sense as used in this trial?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     The National Offensive is quite of the same political
18structure and to have the same ideas like the NL, the
19Nationalist in Hamburg. It is a southern part of this
20neoNational Socialist cadre organizational stuff in the
21early '90ss. You have NO there, you have the NB nearby in
22Bavaria, you have the National Bloc, you have the
23Nationalist, you have the GA, the German Alternative, the
24Deutsche Alternative. These are the various, you know, in
25their language gau.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Gau?

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 1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, gau. Yes, it is really the National Socialist, what
 2we are talking about.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     What is the evidence that himself had extreme opinions,
 4apart from the opinion of your consensus and the social
 5sciences, is there any evidence? Did he engage in any
 6extremist acts? Did he publish any extreme literature?
 7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Oh, yes, he did so. Yes, he did so.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did he write any extremist books? Did he throw pigs into
 9other people's gardens or do any of those other extreme
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     He did something together with his whole bunch of people,
12and I have to go to the details in looking up what he else
13did aside of this group. But then it cost some time.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you not remember what he did? Was he not very
15important in your memory either?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     He is as important as -- you know, Schwierzak was ----
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Totally unimportant, in other words?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     As important as Worch, aside of the leading position he
19got after the death of Kuhnen, as important as Thomas
20Dienel. So they were not important for me because before
21'89 whatsoever were not important, but since they got
22this influence in East Germany to lead violent skinheads
23and took part in the revisionist movement, they got
24important and influenced the people to a high degree. So
25that in the course of these years the death rate of
26foreign peoples rose, the destroying of Jewish cemeteries

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 1rose, the criminal acts against of right-wing extremists
 2rose to a height of 88,000.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was he prosecuted for any of these actions?
 4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Oh, they organized that in this cadre, in this way of
 5right-wing extremist cadres are doing it ----
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     But you do not mention this in your report?
 7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Propagating ideas of extreme nationalist sort and the
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     You do not mention any of these prosecutions of
10Mr Schwierzak in your report, do you? You say that he was
11given a suspended sentence for trying to revive an
12organization he had previously set up and which had been
13banned, which appears to be a pretty mild kind of offence
14to me.
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I referred, I know, I do not know what I am referring,
16what is in the report, I referred, I know that the NO
17because of this National Socialist ideas was banned in the
18same year, in '92, right, so there is a record on that.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but you tried to give the impression in response to
20my question as to what extremist acts he had committed or
21thoughts he had expressed, you start talking about violent
22acts and murders and so on, and yet when I ask you in
23detail was he prosecuted, then the answer is no?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It is, no, I did not say this. It is the very
25organizational capacity of this NO, tiny as it is, it
26instigated hatred against foreigners, it instigated

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 1anti-Semitism and fuelled these kinds of activities of
 2skinheads in that area where he was active.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     What evidence do you have for these statements or are you
 4just saying it for the court at present? Do you have any
 5evidence to back up these allegations?
 6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, it is the reasoning of the Minister of Interior to
 7ban this group, it is the reasoning ----
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is that the Federal Ministry for the Interior or the
 9Bavarian Ministry of the Interior?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It is the Federal Minister of Interiors, so far I recall.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is that a Socialist Minister?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No, I think it was at that time Manfred Kanter who was a
13more right-winger within the central political scenery.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     So in response to my question as to whether you know
15anything in detail that Mr Schwierzak has done, you come
16up with just vague stories about what the NO or the
17right-wing groups to which the NO was associated has done?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No, it is very decisive.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     He founded the NO, so it is not unreasonable
20to suppose that there was a link between what the NO did
21and Mr Dienel -- and Mr ----
22 MR IRVING:     Was the NO to which I spoke at any time an illegal
23or banned organization? We have had that.
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     The NO, yes, it was, it get banned end of '92, as I said.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     When did I speak to it, Professor Funke?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Before.

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