Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 28: Electronic Edition

Pages 136 - 140 of 204

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 1 MR IRVING:     Is he not on our list?
 3 MR RAMPTON:     No. Do ask about him, I do not mind.
 4 MR IRVING:     Mr Rampton did ask about him yesterday.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     No. As a matter of fact, I do not think I did. I
 6think I was told, without having asked a question, that he
 7was the lawyer, he was the wicked neo-Nazi lawyer or
 8something, but I am not sure my memory is right.
 9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     He is one of the right-wing extremist lawyers, yes, you
10are right.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Anyway he is not on the list.
12 MR IRVING:     Not on the list. Very well. Page 147, Wilhelm
13Staglich, but the question I am going to ask is going to
14be for a totally different reason that his Lordship will
15now appreciate. Your first line says: "Previous to 1945,
16the end of World War II, Staglich was part of a flak
17battery stationed for several months in Auschwitz". Will
18you explain what a flak battery is? Is it an
19anti-aircraft gun battery? Is it as part of the air
20defence system of a site?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was Auschwitz exposed to air raids?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does this mean to say that at some time previous to 1945
25air defence precautions had been taken at Auschwitz?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are the building of air raid shelters part of air raid
 3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I do not know but, yes, yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Thank you very much. Michael Schwierzak, that is the next
 5name on the list on the same page, how would you describe
 6my contacts so far as they are known to you apart from
 7anti-fascist literature with Mr Michael Schwierzak?
 8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     He, I think, by the intermediation of Mr Worch invited you
 9to speak before his little tiny group, National Offensive,
10down in the southern Germany. This group is part of the
11Kuhnen connection.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     In other words, the invitation came from Althans and not
13from Schwierzak? Is that what you are saying by this
14complicated phrase, by the intervention of Mr Althans?
15What did you mean by that?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I thought it was Worch, but correct me.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well ----
18 MR IRVING:     Well, I do not think it is very important.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- Mr Irving, I think it would be much more
20helpful if you put what you say were your contacts, if
21any, with Mr Schwierzak.
22 MR IRVING:     Well, I thought it would just be helpful if I got a
23straight no from him that this is no evidence of any
24contact between me and Mr Schwierzak.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, there is. There is plenty. That is
26why I am suggesting that you put your case as to whether

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 1you did or did not have an association with him, and if
 2you did what it consisted of.
 3 MR IRVING:     Thank you, my Lord. My Lord, it is helpful to know
 4what questions we need answers for, I think, in this
 5case. Will you, please, therefore, answer the question
 6suggested by his Lordship, what meaningful contacts did
 7I have with Mr Schwierzak, to your knowledge? I insert
 8the word "meaningful" as a means of slimming the answer
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, I do not think I have got my
11message across at all. The burden of Professor Funke's
12evidence -- I have said this many times -- is that you had
13associations with a number of individuals, including
14Schwierzak, and that those individuals are ----
15 MR IRVING:     Extremists.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- in one way or another extremists.
17 MR IRVING:     Yes.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is his case. Mr Schwierzak is on this
19famous list. He is said to be connected with the National
20Offensive. I do think that it is for you to put to this
21witness what your case is. You know what contacts you had
22or whether you had any contacts with Schwierzak and I,
23therefore, think it is not exactly candid of you to ask
24him what evidence he has got.
25 MR IRVING:     Well ----
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The evidence is set out in tab 13. I know

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 1what the evidence is, you know what the evidence is, but
 2what is your case? That is what the object of
 3cross-examination is.
 4 MR IRVING:     My Lord, we are looking at events that happened 11
 5or 12 years ago. These names mean nothing whatsoever to
 6me for the most part.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So you are not conscious of having had any
 8communication with Schwierzak at all?
 9 MR IRVING:     And I am perfectly prepared to be educated to the
10contrary if this expert witness knows quite simply off the
11top of his head, "Mr Schwierzak organized 20 meetings for
12you in Munich, do you not remember?"
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It is stated here, I mean.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     But he just given an answer which I would have found quite
15acceptable that, apparently, Mr Schwierzak was involved in
16organizing one meeting for a very tiny group called the NO
17which was not an illegal body, had not been banned, am
18I right?
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But what is your case, Mr Irving?
20 MR IRVING:     That is the case.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is it you cannot remember the man and do not
22know him from Adam or not?
23 MR IRVING:     That is quite clearly the case.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is? Well, I am afraid I am probably the
25only one in court who did not realize, but I did not
26realise that you were saying that you had no idea who this

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 1man is.
 2 MR IRVING:     My Lord, at the beginning of yesterday's evidence,
 3your Lordship will remember that I showed the witness a
 4list of 6,500 names of people with whom I have had
 5meaningful contacts over the last, well, since 1993, if I
 6can put it like that, and to remember one single name out
 7of that is a fluke, particularly if I have only had one
 8meeting organized by him and I was speaking at this time
 9at 160 meetings per year. I will just ask this question.
10You say that the NO was a relatively small organization or
11diminutively small organization?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was it illegal at that time?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Had I any way of knowing that it might sometime be banned?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, you could have.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, I really do not see the point of wasting time on
18Mr Schwierzak.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, you corresponded with Mr Schwierzak.
20That is what puzzles me.
21 MR IRVING:     Maybe I should look at bundle E sometime and
22refresh my memory.
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I mean we can do it now. It is stated here.
24 MR IRVING:     But, I mean, when these bundles are dropped on me
25from a great height as they were on a weekend ----
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     With that, of course, I am sympathetic.

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