Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 28: Electronic Edition

Pages 126 - 130 of 204

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    Again, we should go to this video. This is of special
 1it? Reference.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Quite clearly --
 3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     To a special group, but often it is the case and I cannot
 4say it is the case here, that you are referring to --
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     -- the reference here is --
 6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     -- to the international Jewry.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     -- international authorities or the German postal
 8authorities or somebody like that, is it not? Which is
 9why it has been distributed from England and not from
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I do not know. I cannot say.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     But to repeat my question, in this particular case it
13cannot be a reference to the Jews, can it, the answer is
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, I think you are right.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, thank you.
17     My Lord, we are now coming very briefly to the
18list at the end, the appendix --
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving I am sorry.
20 MR IRVING:     I have done it wrong again, have I?
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. You asked several questions about the
22way in which this film was going to be supplied to
23Germany. I understand why you did, but you have wholly
24omitted to ask anything about what Professor Funke says
25were the contents of this video, which I notice has you
26saying, and I think you ought it challenge this if you

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 1disagree with it, that the death factories did not exist.
 2And whoever claims to the contrary puts up a blood lie
 3against the German people. Surely that is the nub of the
 4case that is being made against you in relation to the
 5video; not how you manage it convey it to Germany.
 6 MR IRVING:     Well, it is two part piece of proof here, my Lord.
 7The reason I asked the questions I just have is to
 8establish in your Lordship's mind firmly the fact that the
 9phrase traditional enemies of the truth, or the
10traditional enemies did not refer, as Mr Rampton quite
11properly suggests to your Lordship, that it refers only to
12the Jewish community.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think he was talking about the use of that
14phrase in a different context.
15 MR RAMPTON:     I do not say it is coterminous, all I say is that
16it is very often used by Mr Irving to indicate something
17that is apparently called the "international Jewish
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, but leave that on one side. If you want
20my view you are plainly not referring to the Jews when you
21talk of traditional enemies, in that context, but the
22reason I have intervened is that I am puzzled by your not
23having tackled Professor Funke --
24 MR IRVING:     The particular sentence --
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     -- About what you are said to have said in
26the video. I do not know whether you did or you did not

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 1because I have not seen the video but that he is what he
 2is claiming in paragraph 7.7.
 3 MR IRVING:     The sting of that particular sentence but the death
 4factories did not exist.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, well, I mean if you not challenging it,
 7 MR IRVING:     If the reference is to Auschwitz, which it probably
 8is probably is although we cannot tell from this excerpt,
 9then that has been my position all long. The second
10sentence merely puts icing on the cake, if I can put it
11like that, does not add or subtract anything to it, to the
12sting. The sting is the death factories did not exist.
13This is a reference to Auschwitz. We are talking about
14Auschwitz, that is crematorium No. (ii), and I have not
15the slightest doubt that in my summing up, my closing
16speech, I shall establish that case beyond peradventure.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, I do not know whether we have the
18transcript of the video?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, we have parts of the video transcribed.
20 MR IRVING:     Let me put this question to the witness; have you
21seen the video, or have you read the transcript?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I saw parts of the video also, but I am not sure if I saw
23all, and I do not know if I got the whole text.
24 MR IRVING:     Am I right in saying that video called "I Shall
25Return", is an overview of the historical revisionist
26challenges? For example, we have film footage of Dresden

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 1in it, do you remember that? And film footage of
 2Dr Goebbels speaking, so it covers more than just the
 3Holocaust, does it not?
 4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Also the coverage of Dresden, I do not know if this is in
 5this case, often as Mr Evans puts it, as references to the
 6whole procedure of the Second World War and in the top, at
 7the top of it to the Holocaust.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Let me move to the question from his Lordship when we are
 9dealing with Holocaust-related matters, am I only
10referring to Auschwitz or am I referring to other camps,
11like Treblinka, Sobibor, Belzec?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Of course you are referring to others also, of course.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is your opinion or can you remember clearly or is
14that just ----
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No, no, you referred to others also, of course.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     I think we will have to ask to see the transcript or have
17the transcript put to me when the time comes.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We have got it. It is in the German.
19 MR RAMPTON:     It is a full transcript.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is a free-standing sentence referring to
21death camps and death factories generally. I simply do
22not at the moment understand why you are suggesting it is
23limited to Auschwitz.
24 MR IRVING:     Because this video is 90 minutes long, my Lord, and
25not just five lines long. The part from which this is
26taken (and I know it very clearly) is an exposition of all

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 1the arguments on Auschwitz, the decodes, the crematoria,
 2coke combustion logistics and all the other matters like
 3that. We are only dealing with that camp, and that is
 4quite plain from the context. That is probably why only
 5this part has been quoted.
 6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     So if I have to answer very seriously, then I have to have
 7this video or the text.
 8 MR IRVING:     I think it will be properly put to me in
 9cross-examination by Mr Rampton if he is confident in the
10other direction.
11 MR RAMPTON:     I am perfectly confident. It is not the only such
12statement either by any manner of means, but may I tell
13your Lordship that the whole of that video tape, whose
14authorship Mr Irving is in no position to dispute, is
15being translated this afternoon, and that will be ready by
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you. Yes, Mr Irving?
18 MR IRVING:     So on that video tape, just to ask the question
19again, you cannot be certain one way or the other whether
20I was talking only about Auschwitz or any other camps, you
21cannot remember?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Again I have to go at least to some ----
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well...
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It does not work. I mean, I have to see the video in such
25or the text and I will not answer that.
26 MR RAMPTON:     

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