Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 28: Electronic Edition

Pages 121 - 125 of 204

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Page 90, moving on rapidly, there are references there to
 2a meeting organized for me by a Dr Drayher (?) who was a
 3very prominent member, as you say, of the Christian
 4Democratic Party; is that one of the ruling parties in
 5Germany?
 6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It was.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     It was. So he is not an extremist, is he?
 8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No, as a member of the party, but with respect to his own
 9convictions and visions we have to look, we have to have a
10closer look on his wording. I did.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     In other words, he may have had political incorrect
12thoughts in the privacy of his own home in Germany, which
13is a problem, is it?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     That is your language.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Germany, you agree is a much more sensitive area than the
16free world like England and the United States?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, by reason, because of we --
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We have been into this. I have stopped that
19question twice today.
20 MR IRVING:     Well, very well.
21     Page 93, please, paragraph 5.72, here you begin
22paragraph, quite rightly, by saying: "In an unusual move
23Irving took the initiative in his own hands in attempting
24to organise the years' tours"; does that not tell you that
25as of 1st January 1992 Althans was finished as far as
26I was concerned? I no longer built on him?

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 1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     To put it differently you very angry very often about the
 2behaviour of Althans, yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, page 98, the first paragraph, you quote a newspaper
 4there, The Independent, which says that I spoke in Poland?
 5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     And you are aware, of course, that I have never been to
 7Poland in my life. So this is the problem we have with
 8sources that we use, is it not? Sources sometimes can be
 9very wrong?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No, no, I was very cautious, I just said the journalist
11for The Independent suggested that Irving spoke in Poland
12instead.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     That is it. We have to at least put it to the court that
15there are other, you know, sayings, and I so far I see
16I have to check it again, that I did not take side with,
17I did not take side to this.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Page 01, please, the first paragraph, several names here,
19Althans, I am speaking at various meetings; can you see
20from that paragraph what the topic is? Is it
21anti-Semitism? Is it the Holocaust, or is it a scientific
22lecture on the Goebbels diaries which I just retrieved
23from Moscow, and is it also a talk on the Nuremberg
24trials? Organized by these extremists, according to the
25Defence?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     There is a reference to Nuremberg.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     There is a Goebbels reference here, but if you say
 3I believe. The other thing is what you are saying when
 4you were referring to Goebbels, and there we come to
 5another point.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but that is one of the other experts.
 7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Page 127, please.
 9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     The last paragraph beginning "although".
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Would you be so kind just to show it to me, because I put
12it out, I do not know why.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     127.
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No, I have not it here.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     You are quoting from the Munich City authorities decision
16to ban me from the German Reich.
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     From the what?
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     From the German Reich, this is the ban imposed on me by
19the Munich City authorities, was it not?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     The last paragraph beginning with the word "although",
22I draw your attention to the second and their lines in
23square brackets. I am going to ask you, you are not
24implying that I am in any way connected with the
25terrorists attacks or attacks on foreigners' hostels or
26anything contained in those square brackets?

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not see how anyone can possibly think
 2that he was.
 3 MR IRVING:     If he just says "no" that will resolve the matter.
 4He puts it in his report that "his extremism in its most
 5extreme form"?
 6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I did not by any means, in any sense of this whole report
 7rely you personally directly to this kind of atrocities.
 8But what has to be --
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Relate.
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     -- relate, excuse me. But I just quote the decision of
11the authority and the authorities said, OK, this kind of
12talking, this kind of -- and I can put it wordly (sic),
13this kind of rhetoric is in the special moment of our
14history, in the early 1990s, very dangerous, because of
15the widespread of this violence, of these thugs in Rostock
16and where else. They did not use the word "thugs", but
17you know activists of right-wing extremists and skinheads
18and others who did this violent attacks against
19foreigners.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I put it to you that the fact that a visiting British
21lecturer is talking to groups about Goebbels diaries or
22Nuremberg or Dresden is not in the least bit connected
23with what happened in Rostock and it is very, very
24far-fetched for anybody to suggest the opposite?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, of course, but I want to remind you to the Halle,
26speaking in the surrounding things of Halle.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Can I take you now to page 130, paragraph 7.3, the
 2second indented paragraph, beginning: "In the coming
 3weeks", this is the letter that I have written to
 4Mr Wiesal?
 5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     "Film will be supplied from England to avoid problems with
 7our traditional enemies", namely in Germany. Right?
 8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Now to whom do you take the phrase "our traditional
10enemies" to be referring there? The enemies of free
11speech? The international Jewish conspiracy or whom, if
12I can put it like that? My Lord, this has nothing to do
13with the extremist topic, but it is to do with the meaning
14of the words "traditional enemies"?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I mean --
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can it possibly be taken as meaning Jews?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     -- it can be, yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     In what way?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     You did it in the speeches and I --
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     In this letter?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     -- I do not know. I have to read it carefully. Just a
22second.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     The position of the Defence is that I used the phrase "our
24traditional enemies" as being coterminous with the Jews.
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Again, we should go to this video. This is of special
26importance, but of course it is not a direct -- what is

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