Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 28: Electronic Edition

Pages 116 - 120 of 204

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 1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     -- I do not know. You said in -- I read a lot of your
 2letters, you see. In one of your letters you said you
 3know what a populist is, you have to give to the people
 4and I am good populist.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is a familiar saying, is it not, the good
 6politician --
 7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I mean you said it.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     -- the good politician says what the public want to hear.
 9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, you said you will do it there, you are good.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is not a very extreme viewpoint, it is, it is more
12     I am making much quicker progress forwards now,
13if I may, 1979, paragraph 5.3.3, the son of Rudolf Hess,
14is what you hold against the son of Rudolf Hess the fact
15that he is the son of Rudolf Hess, is there not a German
16word for that called "zibenhuft" (?)
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No, come on, I do not --
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     You mention --
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     -- I do not rely on "zibenhuft". I see the son and the
20son of the son each different, of course.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     -- you mention the fact that he is in your little list,
22you mention the fact he is the son of the famous Rudolf
23Hess, the martyr?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think he is in the little list, if
25you referring to the list of associates.
26 MR IRVING:     Page 143, my Lord, he is on the little list.

.   P-116

 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But if you remember we went through that
 2list, and we have selected, or rather the Defendants have
 4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, but ----
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Those whom they rely on.
 6 MR IRVING:     They are not going to rely on Rudolf Hess.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     He is not in the list.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     I do not rely on Rudolf Hess. He has been long
 9dead, I think.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This is Rudiger.
11 MR RAMPTON:     I have a theory which I am going to ask about in a
12re-examination in the light of recent questions that --
13 MR IRVING:     Down goes another one then.
14 MR RAMPTON:     There is a tendency to glorify what might one call
15"Nazi war heroes", but I will come back to that point.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is a different point.
17 MR RAMPTON:     That is a different point.
18 MR IRVING:     I am quite happy to be accused of glorifying Rudolf
19Hess. Very happy and not at all ashamed.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think we need to spend very long on
21Rudiger Hess.
22 MR IRVING:     No. Turn to page 81, you mention on paragraph
235.5.10, I think completely gratuitously, Michael Kuhnen
24died of a certain illness?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is there any reason why you mention that in this report?

.   P-117

 1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It was said in the whole publication of these groups that
 2it was because of AIDS and he was reduced in his
 3capacities and believe me I do not rely on this specifics.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am going to ignore that paragraph
 6 MR IRVING:     Very good. Page 85, the final footnote on the
 7page, please, there is a letter to Ernst Zundel that you
 8may find significant about Althans. Always interesting to
 9read what one --
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     What note?
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     -- the final footnote on the page. Interesting to read
12what one extremist writes to another about a third one, is
13it not, here I am saying that Althans is damaging the
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you accept that the "Bewegung" I am referring to is
17the revisionist movement?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I have to read it, otherwise -- here at the top, at the
19bottom, yes, decide what to do with who is damaging the
20Bewegung by his antics in his close contacts to the media.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     And my question is, the word "bewegung" is a reference
22purely to the revisionist movement?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Maybe this is true, and by this you are saying what you
24alluded to a minute ago, that there is a difference
25between revised history, and in that sense revisionism,
26and the revisionist movement.

.   P-118

 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     And the reason I am writing a German word is because Mr
 2Zundel is German, is he not, sometimes you get a better
 3nuance using a German word?
 4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     To be honest, I am not sure what is all is included if you
 5say "bewegung".
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     If it is the revisionist movement then, of course, it is
 7not just Holocaustism, it is about Dresden, about
 8Nuremberg, about Rommel. It is the whole of all the talks
 9I delivered to any of these organizations with the
10revisionist theme?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     The revisionist theme, revisionist movement means so far
12I got it especially to revise German history.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     In a special direction.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Over the page, if you look at the sentence beginning
16with the words "needless to say" --
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Where is it, excuse me?
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     -- on page 86.
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     86?
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     A letter I am writing to Ernst Zundel at the beginning of
21the fourth sentence down "is needless to say"; does that
22paragraph imply to you that I am determined to keep within
23the law of whatever country I am in?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I just have read it, excuse me.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Even in private I am warning these people I will not do
26anything that infringes the law of my host country.

.   P-119

 1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     According to the -- where is it stated?
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Where is it stated, in the middle?
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     The third paragraph on page 86: "Needless to say I have
 5the utmost faith in you. You are a professional. You know
 6the law in both Canada and Germany and keep within it so
 7far as I can judge"?
 8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     I have respect for the law.
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     This is true. You, in this letter you try to, you
11present, observe the law, right, and you did it often in
12these kind of letters, yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     And this is not a letter that has been written for window
14dressing, is it? It is not a self-serving letter in your
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     What is self-serving?
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Just for the purpose?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     That is difficult to assess, because it is of course for
19the windows, that is to say for the lawyers and that makes
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is your opinion.
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     And you ask about my opinion, and on the other hand it
23make sure of your own purpose.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, that I am determined that nobody should even think of
25doing something that would infringe the law; is that fair?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     The letter shows that.

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