Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 28: Electronic Edition

Pages 111 - 115 of 204

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, in other words, from this correspondence or on this
 2letter from me to Dr Staglich, I am replying to him and he
 3is asking me for advice on publishing something?
 4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, and you are replying and saying, OK, it is absolutely
 5in the like minded, you know, direction of publishing
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes?
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     "Sinne" means thought or mind, does it?
 9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Excuse me?
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     "Sinne" means thought or mind?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
12 THE INTERPRETER:     Is a whole figure of speech?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It is in our, you know, joint effort.
14 THE INTERPRETER:     "Along our lines" is a better translation.
15 MR IRVING:     I will leave that, the Staglich letter, unless your
16Lordship wishes to ask me any further questions.
18 MR IRVING:     Go briefly to page 74, which is one more item
19referring to Wahrheit macht frei meeting in Munich?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Paragraph 5.3.40.
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     I have a little chicken to break with you, I think we say
24in German, do we not (German spoken)?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Go ahead.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     You say some members of the audience wore donkey masks and

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 1hung notices around their neck? My Lord, you remember
 2the --
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I do.
 4 MR IRVING:     The text which you put here is "I still believe in
 5Holocaust, the ass that I am"; is that the text that was
 6actually on the photograph we saw on the video?
 7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No, it was a reference to it, and I have to admit this, if
 8there is not no other showing of 21st August '90, then it
 9was a mistake. But, you know, the sense of it again was,
10as you know, the 78 presentation of this ugly reference to
11the Holocaust denying.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     But there is a major difference?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     By Boris and Kuhnen.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     But there is a major difference between the text that you
15have said in your expert report was on that notice and
16what we actually saw with our own eyes?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, this is a mistake.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     The source of your mistake is that book in source 285,
19which is one your anti-fascist sources.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Are you any doubt, Professor Funke, that the
21caption which I think was along the lines of, "some people
22believe everything they are told".
23 MR IRVING:     That is right.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Are you in any doubt about what that is
25really referring to?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I am without any doubt that this is referring to this very

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 1quotation of 1978.
 2 MR IRVING:     Well, I do not think that is the question his
 3Lordship was actually asking.
 4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Excuse me --
 5 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, it was.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It was.
 7 MR IRVING:     I think what his Lordship really wished to ask you
 8if I may be so bold and impertinent is.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, you ask what you think I wish to ask.
10 MR IRVING:     This is what David Irving would wish to ask, you
11would associate that only with the Holocaust lie, would
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     -- yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     That particular, yes?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     And you?
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     I was going to thank his Lordship for having opened this
17avenue of question. Over all the talks that I delivered
18in Germany, speaking to these groups that you consider to
19be right-wing extremists, was the Holocaust ever or the
20only topic that I talked about?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It was the topic, it was not the only one.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it fair to say that there was a whole quiverful? A
23whole package?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Package, yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Of topics on which I talked, about 20 different topics?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     There was the Nuremberg trials --
 2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, of course.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     -- Churchill, there was Pearl Harbour, there was a
 4whole --
 5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Dresden.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     -- Dresden. The expulsion of the Germans from the Eastern
 7territories, there was the Eastern frontiers --
 8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Hungary thing --
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     -- the Hungary uprising. Rommel, you remember --
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     -- Rommel.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     -- so, what I am going to put to you is the fact that that
12these revisionists lectures, which were held around
13Germany, to which, in fact, that placard refers, refers
14not just to Holocaust revisionism, but to the whole
15revisionism scene, which includes everything about history
16that needing revising?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Oh no, there is a difference between the revisionist -- to
18revise history and this package of persons, or package of
19literature, that is referring to this revisionism we are
20talking yesterday and today about, that came to the fore
21in the German public, especially since '89 and with you.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     But you agree that I spoke to these bands of incorrigible
23young Germans, constantly improving their mind on history
24from my viewpoint as a revisionist historian giving them
25an alternative viewpoint on history, not just about the
26Holocaust, but about many other topics?

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 1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It depends on the subject. You know the debate on
 2Dresden, for example, has its own tone and has an own
 3message, we can go into that, compared to that of course
 4it goes to the peak of this, in this sense, revisionists
 5who really dispute the amount, and even the content of the
 6Holocaust. So of course there are different levels, but,
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     The answer is, yes, I did speak on different topics to
 9different groups?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No question.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     I did not change the cut of my jib. I did not change --
12I am not trying to be deliberately obtuse. I did not
13change the content of my talk depending on whom I was
14talking to?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Oh, I heard the translation, that you are leaning to the
16public, right.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     I did not change the content. It was always the same, the
18same record that every audience got, whether it was
19generals or right-wing extremists?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No, you changed, of course. That is your reversal, your
21conversion, if I may say so, you had during the court
22procedures in Toronto and since then --
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     I do not think you quite understood the question.
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     -- I did not get --
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     I did not adapt the meeting, I did not adapt the content
26of my talk to the audience that was in front of me?

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