Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 28: Electronic Edition

Pages 106 - 110 of 204

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    Professor Funke, will you agree that the evidence
 1is that I had only one meaningful encounter with
 2Dr Staglich or Judge Staglich when I fitted him in for a
 3breakfast appointment on this day, on April 22nd, and that
 4you have not seen any evidence to the contrary?
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No. It is not a question of whether he has
 6seen any evidence; it is a question of what you say the
 7position is, Mr Irving. There is a difference. Are you
 8saying that there were just those two occasions when you
 9even spoke to the man?
10 MR IRVING:     Yes, of course. That is precisely what I am
11putting to the witness. I appreciate the witness is very
12tired, but I would like answers.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What is the answer Professor Funke? Only saw
14him twice?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I see what I see, and these are the references.
16 MR IRVING:     A meaningful encounter?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     And I saw the videos and there was Staglich in Hagenau and
18this was way before and, of course, there were 80 people
19in Hagenau or 100, and the literature shows that all the
20late 80s, Staglich was one of the prominent along with Uda
21Valendi, so there is a high probability that you know him.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     From this same consensus of opinion of the social
23scientists, is that where this probability comes from or
24is it from any documents that you have seen?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I do not answer this question.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am sorry?

.   P-106

 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     He is not answering the question and I am not
 2going to say he must.
 3 MR IRVING:     In other words, there is no evidence.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving ----
 5 MR RAMPTON:     No, I am sorry.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, Mr Rampton?
 7 MR RAMPTON:     I am sorry, it just will not do. There is a long
 8entry, for example, for December '89 -- this is not from
 9the red RWE files but from the diary files -- of a letter
10from Mr Irving to Staglich dated, the diary entry, I am
11sorry, I do not know the date, it must be the last day of
12November, in fact, or something like that.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It had better wait re-examination so that we
14know what the date is.
15 MR RAMPTON:     It is villainous, in my submission -- I use that
16word deliberately -- for Mr Irving to propose that he has
17had no meaningful contact with Staglich in order to
18mislead the witness and, perhaps, indirectly the court
19when I see from his diary a long German letter to
20Dr Staglich a whole year earlier.
21 MR IRVING:     Saying precisely what?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It may be, Mr Rampton, if I may suggest it,
23that Staglich might be an example of somebody who it would
24be, in the light of the way Mr Irving puts his case, who
25might be added as another of the sections in one of these
26RWE files.

.   P-107

 1 MR RAMPTON:     He might be, it might be that it is difficult. To
 2trawl a haystack like that is quite hard.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, you must be appreciating that
 4I must have you put your case in relation to these
 5witnesses ----
 6 MR IRVING:     I thought I had put it more clearly than I did,
 7that I had had no meaningful contacts with Mr Staglich.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You did eventually, yes, and I would like you
 9to do that with the others and not take time, I think, on
10individual paragraphs of the report, although there may be
11some important ones.
12 MR IRVING:     I guarantee we will finish within 30 minutes from
132 o'clock, I will have finished with all the other
14numbers, all the other names, and this is the way to do
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Very well. 2 o'clock.
17 (Luncheon adjournment)
18(2.00 p.m.)
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, Mr Irving.
20 MR IRVING:     Thank you, my Lord. I asked the defence to show me
21the Staglich letter on which they are going to rely and
22they refused. They said they would have it translated.
23 MR RAMPTON:     No, I have not had it translated. It is in the
24original German in Mr Irving's diary. We had but the one
25copy in court. We have more now if Mr Irving would like
26to have one.

.   P-108

 1 MR IRVING:     I will show it to the witness. (Same handed).
 2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Thank you.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     It begins three lines on the bottom of the page. Have you
 4read it?
 5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     So I just ask you two or three questions based on that
 7letter, is there any indication from this letter that
 8there had been any meetings between myself and Staglich
 9prior to that letter?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is there any indication that I had written to him? Is he
12responding to a letter of mine, or is he in fact just
13writing out of the blue to me?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I do not know if he is writing out of the blue, but he did
15write to you.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does he reference a letter from me there, does he say in
17reply to your letter of?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, from the 28th of supposedly November.
19 MR RAMPTON:     We do not have the rest of the correspondence
20because it has not been disclosed.
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I just referred to the letter and stated here 28th
23 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, I know, we do not have the earlier
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Professor Funke, can you translate the first
26sentence of the second paragraph of the letter?

.   P-109

 1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     The second paragraph?
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I was surprised that the facsimile publisher, for you it
 4is not a concept still. It is a very small, very
 5aggressive, yes, publication.
 6 THE INTERPRETER:     Publishing house.
 7 THE WITNESS:     That absolutely is in our sense according to our
 9 MR IRVING:     Are you familiar with the facsimile, they publish
10historical facsimiles?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No, I do not.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     In other words, we are all interested in facsimiles, we
13are all interested in accurate representations of
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Can you say the name of this facsimile firm?
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am sorry?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Can you say the name of this facsimile?
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is called facsimile for law?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     OK, good.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you accept that the reference to being "in our sense"
21is that they are interested in accurate reproductions of
22documents as facsimiles?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I think it meant -- the "our" means -- the our it is an
24our sense means more than just being interested in
25documentation, then, for example, I would be included in
26that, and why.

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