Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 28: Electronic Edition
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1IN THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE
1996 I. No. 113
QUEEN'S BENCH DIVISION
2Royal Courts of Justice
4 Wednesday, 1st March 2000
7MR JUSTICE GRAY
9B E T W E E N: DAVID JOHN CAWDELL IRVING
11(1) PENGUIN BOOKS LIMITED
12(2) DEBORAH E. LIPSTADT
14The Claimant appeared in person
15MR RICHARD RAMPTON Q.C. (instructed by Messrs Davenport Lyons and Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of the First and
17MISS HEATHER ROGERS (instructed by Davenport Lyons) appeared on behalf of the First Defendant Penguin Books Limited
18MR ANTHONY JULIUS (of Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of
19the Second Defendant Deborah Lipstadt
21(Transcribed from the stenographic notes of Harry Counsell
&Company, Clifford's Inn, Fetter Lane, London EC4
23(This transcript is not to be reproduced without the written permission of Harry
25 PROCEEDINGS - DAY TWENTY-EIGHT
1 (10.30 a.m.)
2 < Professor Funke, recalled.
3< Cross-Examined by Mr Irving, continued.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, Mr Irving?
5 MR IRVING: My Lord, I have put two small bundles in front of
6your Lordship. One is a bundle of photographs which I do
7not propose to dwell very much on. I think I will spend
810 seconds looking at each one with the witness. They are
9photographs of German meetings. They are minor points to
10be made possibly on each of the photographs. Some of he
11meetings we are familiar with, and some not.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
13 MR IRVING: The second bundle, my Lord, I have yesterday taken
14the Eichmann papers, which is what I am now holding in my
15hand. I have converted them to hard copy. I would be
16quite happy to make that available to the Defence. I have
17extracted five or six pages already, which are the only
18pages I have found with a word search for "Fuhrer" or
19"Hitler" in any substance. They may help the Defence,
20they may help me, I have not really looked at them, but
21I have put them there in case there is any need for
22immediate action on them.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, you are not going to deal with them
24with this witness anyway?
25 MR IRVING: No, my Lord.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: So we will put that on one side.
1 MR IRVING: Except that lower down on the same bundle there are
2one or two things that I probably will draw the witness's
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Rampton, do we have a list of the alleged
6 MR RAMPTON: Yes, we do.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I was thinking it might be helpful to have it
8at this stage.
9 MR RAMPTON: Yes. So, it is a list of the alleged extremists,
10it is a list of the important ones for this part of the
11case. There is an "Others" category which really does not
12directly concern Professor Funke.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right. Yes, Professor?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Can I add three remarks from yesterday?
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, if you wish to.
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] When?
17 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] Yes, now.
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] OK, good. I rethought the coverage of 9th November '91 in
19Halle and, to my best knowledge, the NB, the National
20Bloc, is not as I said from the Ruhr area, but from
21Bavaria under the leader of Manfred Eichmann. This is the
23 The second, I did not get the protocol of
24yesterday, so -- the minutes of yesterday, so I do not
25know if I got special question of David Irving right. So
26in the case I did not I want just to state that in those
1pictures we saw he did not allude to direct forms of
2anti-Semitism, but that does not mean that he did not do
3this in the German, you know, appearances, and also if you
4see the whole text of the speech in Munich, I would claim
5this has anti-Semitic sentiments in it. The second one.
6 MR IRVING: Which speech in Munich are you referring to?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yours.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] Well I spoke in Munich about 30 or 40 times probably.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: The one we saw on the video, I imagine.
10 MR RAMPTON: Can I intervene at that stage, to point something
11out, and it is this. If we are talking about the first
12Munich meeting, the one which has "Wahrheit macht frei"
13and David Irving's name on the placard underneath it. Our
14understanding from the diary of Mr Irving, first of all,
15is that he spoke twice at that meeting, once before the
16interval and once after.
17 The second thing, we learned from his reply,
18that he spoke altogether for about an hour, and that he
19said he was going to rely on the text of what he said at
20the trial of this action.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You have not had anything?
22 MR RAMPTON: I have never had the tape or a transcript of it.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Mr Irving, what about that?
24 MR IRVING: My Lord, obviously, at one time I had anticipated
25that I had a tape of it. In fact, I think there is
26correspondence indicating that I believed I did have a
1tape of it, but I have disclosed all my tapes and
2cassettes to the defence in this matter, nothing has been
3withheld. I had no idea what was on the video cassettes
4because I did not have a video player.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: In the light of that, Mr Rampton, I think it
6has to be left to cross-examination.
7 MR RAMPTON: Well, I think it will. There are some other
8things I want to raise in relation to discovery in
9cross-examination. I am a little concerned, however,
10about the time-scale, because the cross-examination of
11Mr Irving by me, which might last a day, or a day and a
12bit, I hope we will be finished this week.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: So do I.
14 MR RAMPTON: That will be the last of the evidence. I cannot
15say any more than that.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, obviously, I am not going to cut off
17Mr Irving. I have given an indication that I think the
18scope of cross-examination of this witness is relatively
19limited. You have, if I may say so, taken hints in the
20past, but you must take your own course, this is not a
21direction of any sort.
22 MR IRVING: Next week, of course, I will have some submissions
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Of course. You both will. Anyway, shall we
25press on? Is there anything else?
26 MR RAMPTON:
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