Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 27: Electronic Edition
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1IN THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE
1996 I. No. 113
QUEEN'S BENCH DIVISION
2Royal Courts of Justice
4 Tuesday, 29th February 2000
7MR JUSTICE GRAY
9B E T W E E N: DAVID JOHN CAWDELL IRVING
11(1) PENGUIN BOOKS LIMITED
12(2) DEBORAH E. LIPSTADT
14The Claimant appeared in person
15MR RICHARD RAMPTON Q.C. (instructed by Messrs Davenport Lyons and Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of the First and
17MISS HEATHER ROGERS (instructed by Davenport Lyons) appeared on behalf of the First Defendant Penguin Books Limited
18MR ANTHONY JULIUS (of Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of
19the Second Defendant Deborah Lipstadt
21(Transcribed from the stenographic notes of Harry Counsell
& Company, Clifford's Inn, Fetter Lane, London EC4
23(This transcript is not to be reproduced without the written permission of Harry
Counsell & Company)
25 PROCEEDINGS - DAY TWENTY-SEVEN
1 (10.30 a.m.)
2 MR RAMPTON: I think Mr Irving has something to say, my Lord.
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, Mr Irving?
4 MR IRVING: My Lord, I understand that today I am going to be
5cross-examining Professor Funke, which is after he has
6been presented to the court. There are two things I want
7to mention first. First of all, I understand from today's
8Israeli newspapers and yesterday's Washington Post that
9the Defence now have the Eichmann papers. In other words,
10they are going to bring in the Battleship Eichmann in a
11frantic attempt to rescue their position.
12 I would be very grateful if I had the chance to
13read them as early as possible rather than just being
14presented with them piecemeal.
15 MR RAMPTON: Yes, of course. We have not read them yet. If
16they contain relevant material, those relevant parts will
17be disclosed at once.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is that enough?
19 MR IRVING: My Lord, do they not now become discoverable now
20that they are in their custody?
21 MR RAMPTON: No, not unless they are relevant.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not know quite what we are talking about
23is it a diary?
24 MR RAMPTON: I do not know. I have not seen it. It has come
25on e-mail. It is about 600 pages of memoirs. That is all
26I know. If they contain relevant material, then the
1relevant material, plus context of course, will be
3 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is a slightly unconventional approach,
4is it not? Normally, it would be a document which would
5be discoverable if it contained any relevant material.
6You would not normally redact the non-relevant material.
7 MR RAMPTON: You are allowed to redact that is the case of
8Guardian v. GRE.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Only for good reasons, in my recollection.
10 MR RAMPTON: No, if it is irrelevant. I do not really mind as
11it is in the public domain anyway.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is it?
13 MR RAMPTON: Yes. It will be from tomorrow morning. The
14Israeli government are going to release it to the public
15at large, so I do not really mind. But I do not want to
16lumber the proceedings with a great fat document if it
17does not contain anything relevant.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Nor do I. It just seems to me, in terms of
19what Mr Irving should see, he probably ought to see for
20himself and judge for himself.
21 MR RAMPTON: Yes. It is not a problem. It is just that we
22have not looked at it ourselves yet. It is not even in
23readable form at the moment.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It may feature in your cross-examination of
25Mr Irving, I suppose.
26 MR RAMPTON: It may well do. I will know by the end of the day
1whether it will, and he will immediately get a copy.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: He ought to have the copy by close of
3business today really, ought he not?
4 MR RAMPTON: I agree.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Good. Thank you. So that deals with that.
6 MR IRVING: My Lord, inform me, please. Is it not automatically
7discoverable now that it is within their custody,
8possession and power?
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are going to get it.
10 MR IRVING: Just so it can be quite plain, the whole document
11rather than a redacted version.
12 MR RAMPTON: No. I made a mistake. I thought it had come
13through in e-mail and has been put into readable form.
14Apparently not even that has happened yet. There is
15something the matter with the electronics.
16 MR IRVING: I recommend Macintosh.
17 MR RAMPTON: I do not know what the problem is because I am
18completely ignorant on those matters, so I have to
19surrender to others.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, the order I am making, unless I am
21told that it is electronically impossible to comply with
22it, is that you should be provided with a copy.
23 MR IRVING: In electronic form if necessary.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: In electronic form if necessary, of the
25Eichmann document by close of business, by which I mean,
26let us say, 5 p.m. today.
1 MR IRVING: I am indebted to your Lordship. The second point
2concerns the videos. I see that preparation has been made
3for display of videos. I have no notion of which video is
4going to be shown. It may well be that I would have
5objections to make to the videos for the reasons that
6I have already adumbrated to your Lordship, namely videos
7that have been edited in some way or prepared for
8broadcasting with sound effects and violins and subtitles,
9which may have been tendentiously translated, and the rest
10of it. I see the equipment is there. I certainly have a
11day of cross-examination of Professor Funke to do today
12and I think that I should be told in advance what the
13videos are and be given a chance to make representations.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have some sympathy with that.
15 MR RAMPTON: What I propose to do is to ask Professor Funke to
16lay the ground for these videos, because I do not think it
17is right to spring them on Mr Irving or your Lordship just
18like that, by asking him. Your Lordship will know that at
19the back of his report there is an appendix containing a
20list of names and descriptions. I am going to ask him to
21go through the important characters in that list, to
22expand on who they are and what they stand for, then to
23ask him how far he is aware that those people have had
24contact with Mr Irving, because Professor Funke has had
25access to Mr Irving's diary correspondence and so on, and
26to ask him the nature of those contacts speaking to
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