Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 27: Electronic Edition

Pages 96 - 100 of 183

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    You talk about getting the global picture. Well, today
 1time and not just these one or two episodes that have been
 2selected. Do you agree with that?
 3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Not everything, oh no.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     There is a much wider picture.
 5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I just pinpoint these things that are of importance for
 6the libel act, having extremist views, are you a dangerous
 7Holocaust denier. You know, the Holocaust denier thing is
 8somehow embedded in these political years, and that may
 9cause a judgment to be dangerous, and this is up to of
10course the court and not to me. But there is something
11that conflates the two levels of activities -- conflate,
12coming together.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Converge?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Converge, excuse me.
15 MR IRVING:     Yes. You have picked altogether on, I think we
16will find we end up with about half a dozen names that
17mean anything, because most of these people, you will
18probably agree, I have never met or heard of before. So,
19if we end up with half a dozen or a dozen names.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is too broad to be answerable.
21 MR IRVING:     There is a question that actual follows. That was
22a comma there. The question now follows. Professor
23Funke, will you now please have a look at the little
24bundle of documents I gave you, so we can give it a kind
25of scale of proportion.
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Is this the bundle J?

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
 2 MR IRVING:     Yes, it is. Professor Funke, if you just look at
 3pages 4, 5, 6 and 7, I do not want you to read them, just
 4look at the numbers at the top of each of those pages.
 5Will you agree with me that those are the title pages of
 6five of my address lists on my computer, and that they
 7show respectively totals of addresses of 571, 1169, 966,
 82000, 158, 1662 records? All told about 6,500
 9acquaintances that I have, just from these five address
10lists. You have picked on six or 12 or of that order of
11magnitude. I have contacts with all of these 6,500
12people. That is the global picture. You have picked on
13just these few. Would you agree that therefore possibly
14the poisonous extremism which you think you have found in
15David Irving is possibly diluted when it is dropped into
16the larger ocean of all these worldwide contacts, many of
17whom are left wing liberals, for example?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It is not my duty to judge the 6,000 plus addresses and to
19look after them.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It was my duty to refer to the cause of the libel act, and
22so far I have to reiterate that the bunch of people we
23discussed before the break are so decisive in making up a
24very violent movement, that of course there is a question
25how far, Mr Irving, if I may say so, you are interacted
26with them, or not. My judgment is that you were in the

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 1course of these years.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     In your opinion, yes. I will be looking at a lot of these
 3names in detail as we go through your report but I am
 4going to ask general questions now. You had complete
 5access to all my private diaries, although I noticed in
 6your report there is a reservation about whether it was
 7complete access or not. You had complete access to all my
 8telephone logs. Did you notice that in my private diaries
 9at the beginning of every year there were pasted lists of
10people who received Christmas cards from me, or from whom
11I received Christmas cards, just as one thermometer, so to
12speak, of personal friendships? Did you notice these
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I saw some of them and, of course, I did not address it
15because it is not to the interests of the public court
16I let of course out all the very private things, and this
17is due to my personal understanding, and I think also to
18the rules of the court.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     But, Professor Funke, you would certainly have mentioned
20in your report if you had noticed that I had received
21regularly Christmas cards from the Worch family or from
22your Thomas Dienel, or any one of these other people, you
23would have mentioned it, would you not, or if I had sent
24them? It would have indicated a closer degree of intimacy
25than just being telephoned by these people?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     This question presses me to go in further detail to what

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 1I realized with respect to both Worch, and again I have to
 2restrict myself, but what I can say definitely and we can
 3have further detailing of that, that there was a very,
 4very intense relationship, cooperation, and what-have-you,
 5between David Irving and Christian and Ursula Worch. This
 6is for sure.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, but we were on Christmas cards. You do
 8not need to repeat what you have said already, if I may
 9say so, Professor.
10 MR IRVING:     The answer is no, I think, is it not?
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think the answer is that if you had
12discovered there were Christmas cards being exchanged with
13the Worchs regularly, you probably would have said so?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I do not know.
15 MR IRVING:     Another general question: in the exchanges that
16passed between myself and the Worchs, is there any element
17of Holocaust denial or anti-Semitism to your memory?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Say it again?
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     In the exchanges, the contacts, between myself and Worch,
20Mrs or Mr Worch, was there any element of Holocaust denial
21or any element of anti-Semitism?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I mean, the very fact that Mr & Mr Worch was a key
23organizer of this very Holocaust denier Congress in Munich
24is an indication that, yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Mr Worch was an organizer of the Leuchter Congress, in
26your opinion?

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 1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No, of the first Congress in 21st April '90.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     On what?
 3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     He was there and he was there again.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     On what evidence do you base that statement?
 5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     If I may add, he was there again in late March, as you
 6could see just a minute ago.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     You say he was there, but how many people do you estimate
 8were there Lowenbraukeller in Munich on 21st April 1990,
 92,000 people?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I do not know. It was said that there were 800 or so.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     So being there is not enough. What evidence do you base
12your statement that Worch was an organizer of that
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Because he prepared it together with others. He was ----
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     What evidence?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     He was responsible for the so-called security thing.
17I said deliberately that this picture, we are both of
18these various persons stood together, that is Althans, on
19the one hand -- he was, of course, the more important --
20and Christian Worch, on the other hand, showed something
21about the degree in which they were interacting by
22preparation and enacting the Congress.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     So your statement is based purely on that visual image we
24have of Althans standing next to ----
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No, also the references in what you got, I think, of the
26whole, of the whole letters from you to them and back and

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