Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 27: Electronic Edition

Pages 91 - 95 of 183

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Together?
 2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     You know he was around. We have to look on the video.
 3You know on the stage there were Christian Worch and you
 4and ----
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     It was the back of a lorry, in fact.
 6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Skinhead guys, so far as I know, of the region. Then you
 7came before this both, you came and then you left. This
 8is what I saw. You are right.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     In fact, have you read my diary and do you get the
10impression from my diary in doing so that I arrived,
11I spoke and I left immediately and headed back to West
12Germany within ten minutes?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I think you would not make it in ten minutes to West
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, I stayed around for ten minutes to make my speech
16and left immediately. Was that the impression you got?
17Or did you get the impression that I stayed there the
18whole day, applauding every speaker?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     The diary shows no further inclination with the procedures
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     The diary refers to my making a rabble rousing speech,
22does it not, which Mr Rampton read out this morning?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     So far as I recall, yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you seen any references in my diary to my making a
25rabble rousing speech to my third daughter, Paloma, when
26she misbehaved one day and I made a rabble rousing ----

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 1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     You have to give me evidence.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That I think I would not pursue as a question
 3because it will involve about ten minutes of explanation.
 4 MR IRVING:     Yes. I think I have established the main points.
 5Just let me ask you once again. Do you specifically
 6recall seeing any image of me on that film footage on the
 7back of that truck next to or talking to Thomas Dienel?
 8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I did not see it on the video, no.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     No. The Leuchter Congress, which is the film that was
10shown just before that, March 23rd 1991, his Lordship
11invited you not to translate what I said in my remarks,
12but would it be right to say that I just told the
13audience, "I have to tell you that I cannot tell you
14anything, the police have ruled that we cannot talk about
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     This is right.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did I then continue to say that my topic was going to be a
18lecture on Winston Churchhill and the United States entry
19into World War II? Was that going to be the topic?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     It was not going to be Holocaust denial or it was not
22going to be an anti-Semitic talk, to your knowledge?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     The Munich lecture of April 1990, this was the Wahrheit
25Macht Frei lecture that we saw, the one that cost me so
26much, those few words, Wahrheit Macht Frei is "the truth

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 1shall set you free". Is that an appropriate translation
 2of that?
 3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I think so.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is that not in fact a quotation from the Bible, the
 5scriptures, from John 8.32?
 6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I do not know. I am not so Biblefest, as we say in
 8 THE INTERPRETER:     Not as well versed in the Bible.
 9 MR IRVING:     It had nothing to do with whatever private
10obsessions Mr Rampton may have with that phrase? It has
11nothing to do with anybody's -- in other words there are
12other possible explanations why that is a popular phrase
13in Germany?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     The question of Richard Rampton was quite valid. It came
15into my mind in the subconscious.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     The resonance?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     The resonance and the reference to the Nazi period,
18because of the aggressive outlet of the whole event in
19April 90 as set out by Mr Althans in saying, this is the
20end of the defence revisionists and now we have to think
22 THE INTERPRETER:     We have to change our thinking.
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     And then, according to the sense, for a new political
24revolution or the like. I have to find the exact quote.
25So there is a surrounding atmosphere that can lead to
26these kinds of sensitivity that can allude to this Nazi

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 1period slogans.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Still dwelling on the Munich events, have you seen any
 3reference in my diary to my criticising Althans for the
 4appearance at that function?
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     For what at the function?
 6 MR IRVING:     The appearance, the way it was staged, the staging
 7of it.
 8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     So far as I recall with respect to the 1st April '90
 9Congress, you said two things, except the skinheads and
10the flags, or so in your diary.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. I did not like the skinheads and I did not like the
12flags and I told Althans that.
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Can I add something?
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, do. I was just looking up the diary
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Of course it is of interest to see you again meeting these
17skinheads in Halle and elsewhere.
18 MR IRVING:     Confronting them, or having them imposed upon me?
19Would that be the right way to say it?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I cannot say yes to that.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is not impossible, of course, that these skinheads have
22been bribed to come along and shout those slogans for the
23benefit of the newsreel cameras?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No way, because I looked very exactly to the surrounding
25conditions and I laid this out before the break, and
26I could extend it to hours, what this special meeting in

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 1early November '91 meant, especially for the two levels of
 2the three I mentioned, that is the neo-Nazi reorganizing
 3attempts and the reference and the organizational capacity
 4they want to extend to the violent skinheads scenery in
 5East Germany.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Of course, you agree that, if I had no connection with
 7anybody at that Halle function, apart from the invitation
 8from Mrs Worch to come and deliver a five-minute talk,
 9then what the infrastructure may have been is not
10necessarily something that I will have heard about?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It is a kind of denying, if I may say so. This whole
12circumstance, this political revisionist, the like,
13circumstances, you took side, you cooperated for a period
14of time with 26, you know, mentioning of the interaction
15between the Worches and so forth, the Ewald Althans
16interaction was even more intense, the Karl Philipp
17interaction. So, if I may draw the attention to the whole
18picture you will get if you see Mr Irving throughout these
19years interacting with these groups, and he again and
20again had to face this, and all the way long he reiterated
21his quest to speak before these audiences, and was there.
22So in that sense, I will draw a different picture than
23this is alluded in the question of Mr Irving.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     You talk about getting the global picture. Well, today
25and I suppose now tomorrow as well, we will be getting the
26global picture, which is everything I was doing at that

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