Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 27: Electronic Edition

Pages 86 - 90 of 183

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    Professor Funke, good afternoon. Before we start
 1memory, and particularly some of the things that we have
 2seen on the videos. The very last video we saw was the
 3events in Halle on November 9th 1991. Is that is correct?
 4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you studied the events of that day in any particular
 6detail, looked at the press clippings or other footage
 7than we have seen on television?
 8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I tried the best I can.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Am I right in saying that the world's television
10news commentators were there, all the big names, Martin
11Bell, the equivalent of the German television stations
12were there?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     There was a lot of coverage about this demonstration, this
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you familiar with the fact that German television
16newsreel teams, in order to spice the footage of what they
17are filming, sometimes bribe people in the audience to do
18illegal acts, committing illegal acts?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I do not know about it.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you heard of episodes where, for example, a Frankfurt
21television producer was prosecuted for arranging for
22skinheads to give Hitler salutes?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     If you give me evidence, it would be fine to see it and to
24react on this.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is a perfectly proper answer.
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     If this is the case, of course it has to be criticised.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Did you see on the footage that we just saw, when
 2these irresponsible shouts from the audience of Siegheil,
 3-- which is a Hitler salute, is it not?
 4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did you see me put up my hand to tell them to stop?
 6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes. At least, you did a kind of gesture, not instigating
 7it but ----
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     To indicate that it was not welcome?
 9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     In a way, yes. I would say so. It is a guess, though, it
10is an interpretation, but definitely you did not ----
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     I did not encourage it?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     -- go with these kind of shoutings at that given moment.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did you hear from anyone, or did you see any other film
14footage which suggested that in the first part that was
15missing I had said to the audience, you are a
16predominantly youthful audience?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Please repeat the question, if I may ask.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     In the first passage that was omitted from that, did you
19see any other footage, or hear any tapes, or read any
20suggestions that in that part that was cut out, to which
21I drew his Lordship's attention, I said to the audience
22"You are young people" effectively?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     What I recall very vividly is that you referred to the
24future of Germany and alluding to these youngsters there,
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     That I said "You are Germany's future"?

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 1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Something like this.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     And that "No-one can accuse you of war crimes"?
 3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Something like this, but now we have to get your website
 4on the desk so I can interpret it with you together.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did you hear on the video that we saw me saying in German,
 6as they gave the skinheads the Siegheil salute, did you
 7hear me saying, "You should not be coming with the slogans
 8of Germany's past"?
 9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Something like this sense. The complete wording I am not
10aware of.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Should not always be thinking about the
13 MR IRVING:     Well ----
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Same thing.
15 MR IRVING:     I was asking for the actual words that I used,
16which were, "You should not be using the slogans of the
17past when I have just described you as being Germany's
18future". Another couple of general questions. Did you
19see the pictures of me standing in my rain coat watching
20this crowd of people coming down the street?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did you get the impression from my demeanour that I was
23overjoyed and very happy at what was going on? Or did
24I look rather -- would you describe me -- well, how would
25you describe me? I cannot lead.
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I cannot answer this question precisely, but maybe extend

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 1to two or three further sentences that include my
 2picture. That is that you came into the hall, as the
 3video showed, the hotel hall, saw the people there, a lot
 4of them who were then in the demonstration. You came
 5supposedly with Uschi Worch. So you knew, Mr Irving,
 6about the character of this whole event, as I said it just
 7before the break. The Christian Worch and Uschi Worch
 8groupings came into this demonstration. I would think
 9that, because of this shouting throughout the
10demonstration -- your Lordship, you saw just a bit of
11it -- there was steadily this kind of "aus aus lande aus"
12shouting, again and again "Siegheil", not only at that
14 THE INTERPRETER:     Foreigners out.
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     "Out out foreigners out", and this shouting alike, so the
16character of the demonstration would have been very clear
17for you.
18 MR IRVING:     Now my question again. Did I look shocked when
19I was standing there in my rain coat?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I cannot say. I really cannot say.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was I waving my arms enthusiastically, or was I standing
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     You did not shout "Siegheil", and you did not make these
24gestures of the Nazi period. I did not see that. This is
25all what I can say.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     This takes me to another question, which may well interest

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 1his Lordship. Was there any manifestation of Holocaust
 2denial on that day in Halle? Do you understand the
 4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     To me? Excuse me.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, it was to you.
 6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes. I understood.
 7 MR IRVING:     Or was it just --
 8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     There was a rousing speech afterwards, of too much
 9Dienel. That was very, very aggressive and I have to
10recall -- maybe you will see the typewritten version or
11you will see the video. It was very aggressive against
12foreigners, but Holocaust denial things I did not hear.
13 MR IRVING:     Yes. This leads to another question. Were there
14any expressions of anti-Semitism during the functions or
15on the video tapes that you have seen of that particular
16function, not just xenophobia, not just "aus lande aus.
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I got your point.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Explicit anti-Semitism? Are these useful questions, my
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Absolutely.
21 MR IRVING:     Yes.
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No, they were concentrated on this hatred against
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did you see any pictures in that film footage we saw of me
25with this gentleman, Thomas Dienel, together?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     On the stage.

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