Irving v. Lipstadt
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 27: Electronic Edition
Pages 81 - 85 of 183
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1 Q. [Mr Rampton] The pictures we have seen so far are mostly, not entirely,
2are of what one might call skinheads wearing what the
3English call "bovver" boots. To what extent were they
4characteristic of the audience?
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] They are very characteristic. You have here a clear cut
6sign or picture, better to say, of several, you know,
7groupings coming together. The basis of them are these
8often without hair, you know ----
9 Q. [Mr Rampton] Skinheads?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] --- short hair, dressed and boots of this kind where you
11can do this kind of marching things, using this
12Reichskriegsflagge as described, wearing special jackets.
13They are the core of the skinhead, the violent skinhead,
14scene. This is the one level. The other level is that
15all the little tiny groups of the Gesinnungsgemeinschaft,
16of the Kuhnen crew, after his death, the Kuhnen crew, of
17course, with Worch and others are there joining, and also
18those who are a bit of distance, you can see it a bit
19later, coming to join because there is a joint effort to
20go to the next step of this strategy.
21 The third dimension, the third level, so to
22speak, is that also the NPD, the normal right-wing
23extremists, if I may say so, not so violent, not so
24neoNazi orientated, come to a degree also and are invited
25by this already mentioned to Thomas Dienel, the chief of
26the NPD of Tourignia, Tourignia at that point, at that
1time, and the second chief or one of the second chiefs of
2the Federal level of the NPD.
3 So you have an attempt to join on the very
4radical level the whole scenery to make the next
5strategical step. You have to recall, if I may say this
6as a last sentence, that in the period between '89 and
7this very day since the fall of the Wall, two years were
8gone, and in this they could establish this kind of
9movement of male youngsters to be as furious against
10foreigners as anti-Semitic and for Aryan race based state.
11 Last sentence again, the amount of violence, you
12know, were more intense in '91 than in '90, and again
13in '92. So they are at a juncture of spreading their
14influence in the violent youngsters' scene, especially in
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do we see Mr Irving on the way in ----
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] We will see.
18 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] --- as it were, to the meeting? We will see him, will
20 MR RAMPTON: I do not know if we see him on the march.
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No, no.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton] We certainly see him on the scaffold in due course?
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is what I was really wondering. Yes,
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This is -- you can go on. This is another Krubrich is the
26name, another activist. Can you go a bit back, if I may
1ask you? You see there the Leipzig(?) grouping come and
2join to, tried to join.
3 (The video continued)
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] With sound, please?
5 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] Can you stop there, please? What are they shouting?
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I cannot hear it.
7 THE INTERPRETER: A moment ago they shouted "Aus lande aus" and
8the last bit was unintelligible, so "Foreigners out" they
10 MR IRVING: Would you comment or can you see red flags there in
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes. These are not flags of, if I may interpret it, if
14 MR RAMPTON: Yes.
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] These are not red flags of leftists, as you may think.
16These are flags of the national bloc. This is very much
17to the hardcore right-wing extremists of the neo-Nazi
18scene. Again, a kind of revolutionary, representing a
19kind of national socialist revolutionary strategy of
20strasse faction way back to the early '30s, and they are
21of the rural area, this group. "Rotfront verrecke" was
22shouted. "Rotfront verrecke".
23 THE INTERPRETER: "Red front, go and die".
24 MR RAMPTON: Sorry, I did not hear that, what?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This to the right in the middle is Thomas Dienel, the
26already mentioned Thomas Dienel. In the middle you have
1Christian Worch. So the both organizers, as I alluded to
2before, and to the left, this is so far as I know, an
3activist of the region of Halle.
4 (The video continued)
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This is, excuse me, this flag is the flag of Christian
6Worch's group of Hamburg, the nationalist NL.
7 Q. [Mr Rampton] Which flag is that at the back?
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This black, white.
9 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes, thank you.
10 (The video continued)
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] This is Worch has spoken.
12 MR IRVING: My Lord, can I pause a moment? My Lord, I do not
13think you were looking, but there was a cut between the
14introductory passage where your Lordship starting marking
15and then the camera moved its position. I think it would
16have taken him probably five, 10 or 15 seconds to move to
17a new position during which you missed, obviously, 15
18seconds of intervening text.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: How long did you speak for?
20 MR IRVING: I was a guest appearance of five minutes, I think,
21altogether. I arrived. I spoke for five minutes and
22I immediately left.
23 MR RAMPTON: The diary says for the appropriate date that he
24made a "rabble rousing 10 or 15 minutes".
25 MR IRVING: 10 or 15 minutes, and if you could just run it back
26just a few seconds, then you will see where the actual
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are right. I was reading but I was
4 MR IRVING: There.
5 (The video continued)
6 MR IRVING: Another cut there.
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] You see "Sieg Heil" shouting. Christian Worch is
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is there much more of this?
10 MR RAMPTON: That is about it.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It was not a criticism; it is just that I see
13 MR RAMPTON: No, I know. We can look at it again at the end of
14the case, if necessary. One sees what one sees and hears
15what one hears.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Five past two.
17 (Luncheon Adjournment).
18 (2.05 p.m.)
19 MR RAMPTON: My examination in chief of Professor Funke has
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I thought it probably was, Mr Irving.
22 < Cross-Examined by Mr Irving.
23 MR IRVING: Professor Funke, good afternoon. Before we start
24looking at your report, I think it makes sense for me to
25take up some points of what has been said in the
26examination-in-chief while it is still fresh in our
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