Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 27: Electronic Edition

Pages 76 - 80 of 183

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    There is Christian Worch, organizer of the security aspect
 1This is again Raymund Bachman of Austria. To the left you
 2see Christian Worch. They sing again the first verse of
 3the National Anthem that is forbidden. This is a
 4reference to the berkhof(?) of Hitler, so far as I see
 5it. This is it.
 6 MR IRVING:     My Lord, your Lordship will have noticed that apart
 7from my actual appearance, there is no appearance of
 8myself in that video, if you see what I am saying?
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You will have an opportunity to say whether
10you were or were not there for the whole of it.
11 MR IRVING:     While the images were fresh in your Lordship's
12memory, I wished to...
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, all right, well, that is fair enough.
14 MR RAMPTON:     How long is this one?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     That is a rally in Halle.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is this the last one, Halle?
17 MR RAMPTON:     The last one.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Shall we try to deal with it?
19 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. We will deal with it, if your Lordship will
20permit, by the same means.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. We have actually got a transcript of
23 MR RAMPTON:     Have we?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Tab 11?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     This is Gottfried Kussel.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is this Halle already?

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 1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Just pause a second. I do not know whether it is -- at
 3least I assume it is the same tab 11 in D2(iii)?
 4 MR RAMPTON:     Your Lordship is miles ahead of me, D2(iii).
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is it November 9th 1991, Professor Funke?
 6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     That is 9th November of '91.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, it is the same one.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     That is absolutely right, my Lord.
 9 MR IRVING:     Can we establish whether this is from Dispatches or
10the raw uncut footage, please?
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think that is a proper enquiry.
12 MR RAMPTON:     Of course it is. I do not know the answer. That
13is all. It is taken from This Week, not Dispatches, and
14it is such footage as we have.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So we are getting the whole lot, in other
17 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, but again I suggest that we do not need to --
18we identify Kussel.
19 MR IRVING:     My Lord, if I can just ask you to pause for a
20moment? There are three video tapes. There is the "This
21Week" programme as broadcast and there are two video tapes
22which fell into our hands by accident, containing the raw
23uncut footage of this programme. The "This Week"
24programme is heavily edited and, as a matter of interest,
25I would just like to know what the court is going to be
26shown now, whether it is the raw, uncut footage.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     "This Week", I think, is what is being shown
 2and the whole of "This Week", as I understand it.
 3 MR IRVING:     I understood Miss Rogers to say it was such footage
 4as they had.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     It is not edited. You can see that from the
 6timing ----
 7 MR IRVING:     So this is the raw, uncut footage?
 8 MR RAMPTON:     --- thing. That is why it is rather long and, I
 9am afraid, it is very "samey", but the sameness is rather
10striking so perhaps we should continue in fast forward for
11a bit.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Exactly the same basis as before. Yes?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     As I said, this is Gottfried Kussel marching at the top so
14representing that he is the successor of ----
15 MR RAMPTON:     Excuse me. When you get to Kussel being
16interviewed, could you stop it, please, because I want to
17hear ----
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     By the way, this is the main transparent -- banner, thank
19you, showing that, you know, Reiner Sonntag, Rudolf Hess
20and a third person. These are the matters of the Reich.
21This matter of the Reich, you see it down.
22 THE INTERPRETER:     Matters of ----
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Matters of the Reich, Rudolf Hess in the middle, Reiner
24Sonntag to the left and Michael Kuhnen to the right. I
25have to say that Reiner Sonntag was a neo-Nazi activist in
26Dresden of the same camp, of the neo-Nazi camp, and was

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 1killed by non-political reasons, as far as the record is
 2there. Michael Kuhnen died by disease in April '91.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     Right, thank you.
 4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     This is Deutsche TV. You see now all the political little
 5tiny important for them and for the scene groups, and here
 6this is the political arm of the Kuhnen crew or the
 7Gesinnungsgemeinschaft. So a group that is described by
 8all sources, including the official ones in Germany as
 9neo-National Socialists.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What significance are the colours black, white and red, if
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     This is again schwarz, weiss, rot, black, white ----
13 THE INTERPRETER:     Black, white and red?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     --- and red, reference to the Nationalistic cause to as
15long as they are not allowed to use swastikas, swastika
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Carry on.
18 (The video continued)
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It is a bit quick. I cannot identify the persons by this
20speed. Here again you ----
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Continue with the ----
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     This is the Reichskriegsflagge again. The police
23sheltering the demonstration. Ah, maybe you go a bit
24back, if I may ask you? OK, now with tone, with sound.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Stop there, what?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     This, OK.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What are they shouting first of all?
 2 THE INTERPRETER:     "We'll get you all"?
 3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     "Alle wir kriegen Euch"?
 5 THE INTERPRETER:     "We'll get you all".
 6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     "Wir kriegen Euch alle". "We get you all".
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Who is "all", who is "you"?
 8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     This is a slogan that is used by this very aggressive
 9demonstrations and attack attempts on asylum seekers home
10in the early 1990s, so I did book on the Rostock event
11where this kind of attack of assylum seeker home where
12this again was shouted. So, it is a very aggressive, "We
13get you all".
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, but it is xenophobia, it is not
15specifically anti-Semitic?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No, but it can turn because often they are both and they
17were asked to be both, anti-Semitic destroying cemeteries
18of Jews, and be against foreigners. This is Deutsche
19Hessen, German Hesser, and there to the right you have one
20of the other main active neo-Nazis leaders thinks Heinz
21Reisz, R-E-I-S-Z. He is one of the active persons in
22Hesser. This is a run down region of ----
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can you pause there a moment? Professor, have you tried
24to estimate or do you know how many people were at this
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It was estimated by various sources around 5 to 600.

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