Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 27: Electronic Edition

Pages 66 - 70 of 183

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 1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It is forbidden by law.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And has been since 1945?
 3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Not 1945, but early on in the Federal Republic
 4 (The video continued)
 5You see again both, to the left Ewald Althans and on the
 6right Christian Worch. This is, I would interpret, a
 7telling picture of the organizational activities and
 8activists. I think this person -- excuse me -- but I am
 9not totally ----
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If you are not totally sure I do not think
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Not totally sure. This is again Staglich and then the
13next, it is Karl Philipps, this one, so far. I know but,
14because I do not know him personally and I have just some
15photos, I am very cautious, but I think, as this is told
16in the TV, this is Thomas Heinke, the chief of a skinhead
17faction, very violent activists group in Beiderfeld, this
18is in north west Germany.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     How do you know it is Heinke?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It is said by different sources, and by those who did the
21Michael Schmidt film, who helped to do the Michael Schmidt
22film, so one of the best experts I had, I must say.
23 (The video continued).
24 MR RAMPTON:     Can we stop there please? Do you know what is
25taking place here? This looks like a march?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes. This is a debated march to the Feltan Halle of the

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 121st April Congress, and it was then later on cut by
 2police intervention.
 3 MR IRVING:     Can I ask you if you ----
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think you will have your chance, Mr Irving.
 5 MR IRVING:     It is important we should know if they are marching
 6northwards or southwards, my Lord.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You mean to or from the conference hall? Do
 8you know the answer to that.
 9 MR IRVING:     Is that the Vienna Strasse in Munich.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do you know whether they are going to the
11conference or away from it?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     They go away from the conference, but I do not know to
13what direction, north, south, because I am not familiar
14with Munich.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Right. Let us get on with this.
16 (The video continued)
17Here, stop, please. Back a bit, if I may ask that.
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     This is again Michael Kuhnen, so you see here both of
19them. We are talking about twenty minutes or an hour ago,
20on the one hand David Irving and here Michael Kuhnen.
21 MR IRVING:     Can I ask you again, can you recognize whether
22I was walking northwards up Vienna Strasse from the
23background there?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     As I said, I am not familiar with----
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, you will have your chance. Can
26you just sit patiently.

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 1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Here you see the Reichskriegsflagge.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     You will have to explain Reichskriegsflagge,
 3strictly speaking, because this is an English court.
 4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Shall I do it now?
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes because we are going to see it again. Pause. Down in
 6the bottom left hand corner of the picture there is a flag
 7with an eagle in it. Right?
 8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes. Right.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. It is easy for you now. Reichskriegsflagge is what?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     This is a flag that was used by nationalists before the
11First World War, and during the Weimer republic, but it is
12here, you see there Michael Kuhnen, and there the
13Reichskriegsflagge. Michael Kuhnen, for example, said
14that we use this flag as long as we cannot use the
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Just so that we get it right, a Reichskriegsflagge is a
17Reichs war flag, is that right?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Right.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Thank you very much.
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     You know the German Nationalists, before the National
21Socialists came to influence in the late 20s, they were
22very anti-democratic in their own ideas, to a degree
23anti-Semitic too, and of course, especially before the
24First World War, very much war mongering. So this is a
25kind of reference to these kind of ideas.
26 (The video continued).

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 1 MR IRVING:     That again does not appear to come from the
 2Dispatches programme, my Lord. There was no commentary of
 3any kind. It appears to have been just glued together
 4from various odd bits and pieces.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is that right?
 6 MR RAMPTON:     No. I did not do it, but I am bound to say I find
 7these repeated attacks on the integrity of my junior and
 8my solicitors perfectly absurd.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think it is attack on anyone's
11 MR RAMPTON:     Of course it is.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If your instructions are, or you are told by
13Miss Rogers that that does come from Dispatches, for my
14part, I would accept it straightaway.
15 MR RAMPTON:     I am told it is all part of the same occasion and
16this is what the Professor says.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is all part of the Dispatches programme?
18That is the point.
19 MR RAMPTON:     Is it? Somebody must know the answer. I did not
20do it.
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I know. Can I say?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You had better wait and see.
23 MR RAMPTON:     It is partly from the actual programme and it is
24partly from what I think are called the rushes, the uncut
25material taken on the same occasion. If Mr Irving says
26this is not Munich on 21st April 1990, let him say so.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This is Dispatches material, but it was but
 2not actually part of the broadcast?
 3 MR RAMPTON:     It was stuff that was not transmitted, yes.
 4 MR IRVING:     My Lord, of course, the point I am making is that,
 5if there is cross cutting to indicate there are people
 6over there and I am over there, and there is subsequent,
 7quite clearly from the quality of the film footage, they
 8are taken on different cameras.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, what I have said is that these
10films are going to be admitted for the purpose of
11demonstrating, if they do demonstrate it, who was present
12at meetings at which you spoke or were present yourself.
13 MR IRVING:     I am aware of that.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think that should be the limit of it. Are
15we finished with Munich?
16 MR RAMPTON:     I think we are finished with Munich. I use
17Mr Irving's words in a minute. There is an aspect of this
18on which I also rely. It is not simply who else was
19there, and I have said this before, and what was said by
20the various people, including Mr Irving, which is
21obviously important because we are talking about groups of
22like minded people, it is, to use Mr Irving's phrase, the
23rabble rousing element of it, which one will see very
24clearly when one comes to Halle.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     When Mr Irving can be seen to be present and
26involved, yes.

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