Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 27: Electronic Edition

Pages 61 - 65 of 183

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 1 (The video tape continued).
 2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     This is Michael Kuhnen. This man in the middle now, you
 3see him.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      With the dark hair.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     Without the glasses.
 6 MR IRVING:     Which one?
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Dark hair, without the glasses.
 8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Right to the person with the glasses. You see it?
 9 MR RAMPTON:     That one?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     This one, right, excuse me. This is -- excuse me.
11 MR IRVING:     That is Remer.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Staglich?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, to the right one. This is, in the middle, Otto Ernst
15 (Video continues.)
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     This speaker says that Michael Kuhnen is in the meeting
17and also Manfred Roeder. Manfred Roeder was convicted by
18a court of having done terrorist activities against asylum
19seekers. He got out of prison some time before this
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What terrible things did he do to asylum seekers?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     He arsoned their house.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Arsoned?
24 MR IRVING:     Set fire to it.
25 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, set fire to it.
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Set fire, thank you.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Were the people inside?
 2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Two people were killed.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You say he is welcomed to this meeting?
 4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
 5 MR IRVING:     He was a lawyer, was he not?
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, will you get your chance. I do
 7not really think we can make this too conversational.
 8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     OK.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     Yes.
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     But I may state that Manfred Roeder is not Jurgen Rieger -
11this is a very famous right-wing extremist lawyer.
12 (The video tape continued).
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can we pause there. Do you recognise that
15 MR IRVING:     It's Anthony Hancock.
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
17 MR RAMPTON:     Who is Anthony Hancock? We will not have evidence
18from Mr Irving at this stage.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We do not have want Dispatches conclusions
20after that.
21 MR RAMPTON:      What?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We do not want Dispatches conclusions after
23their detective work; we want this there witness to
25 MR RAMPTON:     No, I want to know what this witness says. I do
26not want to hear Mr Irving says either.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Anyway, you said Hancock?
 2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Tony or Anthony Hancock, it is put differently. He is one
 3of the very active British revisionists, active also in a
 4political sense, and in close connection to David Irving,
 5very close.
 6 (The video continues.)
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can we pause there. I am not understanding
 8what this is being used for.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     That is Mr Hancock lying about his name and his
10reason for being there.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So what, if I may say so?
12 MR RAMPTON:     Well, it is there; it does no do any harm.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, I think it possibly does. All I am
14concerned to get out of this, as I understand it, is who
15was present at the meetings at which Mr Irving either
16spoke or was himself present.
17 MR RAMPTON:     This is such a person.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well fine, but we have established that he
19was there. Why do we have him being evasive on camera,
20because that seems to me to be prejudicial without being
22 MR RAMPTON:     It may be so, but the fact is this witness has
23told your Lordship that this man has a close connection
24with Mr Irving.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, fine, but the fact he is lying
26presumably out of Mr Irving's hearing seems me to be

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 1stretching this all too far.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     No. If he has a reason to lie, it may be inferred
 3in this context what it is.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can we fast forward to the next bit which
 5identifies somebody else as having being present.
 6 (The video continues.)
 7 MR RAMPTON:     I think we do need to see those gentlemen. Who
 8are they?
 9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     These are Munich skinheads, staging something - it is
10difficult do explain ----
11 MR IRVING:     It is a stunt.
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It is very simple, on the other hand. They are staging a
13thing that was already staged in 1978. It is a repetition
14 ----
15 MR RAMPTON:     Right.
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Where Christian Worch, the same Christian Worch, and
17Michael Kuhnen said similar things. Here it is said:
18"I ass believe still what is told to me". It is a clear
19reference to the so-called Auschwitz lie.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You mean: "I am an ass because I believe that Auschwitz
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Excuse me.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, "I just believe everything I am told".
24 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, including Auschwitz, is that right?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It is a clear-cut reference to the ideas of the Holocaust
26denier, that it did not happen but: "I, ass, believe that

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 1it was told that Holocaust happened".
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Professor Funke, is this something that was
 3done on stage, as it were, at the meeting in Munich on the
 421st April?
 5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It was on stage during this Congress, 21st April, in
 7 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     On 21st April?
 8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     1990.
 9 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     On stage, as it were?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     On stage.
11 MR IRVING:     My Lord, that photograph is not actually on the
12stage. It is somewhere in the audience or in the
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Excuse me. You are right. He is right. It is not on
15stage, but it is staged.
16 (The video continued)
17They are singing the first verse of the national anthem
18that is, since 45, forbidden. It refers to the Reich in
19the space of the Reich (German). That is a clear cut ----
20 THE INTERPRETER:     From the river Mars to the River Memel.
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     One river is in Belgium. The other river is north to East
22Prussia. Because of that and the first beginning of this
23first verse, Deutschland uberalles, Germany above all, the
24first verse of the national anthem is forbidden since
25decades, so this is a clear cut attempt to attack it.
26 MR RAMPTON:     Do you mean it is forbidden by law?

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