Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 27: Electronic Edition

Pages 56 - 60 of 183

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    Of course, Michael Schmidt did the editing. He shortened
 1or Christopherson, so far as s I recall, by Zundel.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You say Schmidt is a Revisionist himself?
 3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No. Michael Schmidt did ask to film the scene, and that
 4caused, later on, a lot of problems for Schmidt and the
 5scene. They got in an argument, but he managed to make a
 6long film.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But is Schmidt a right-wing extremist?
 8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No, he is not.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     He is not?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     So far, he presents himself in the public and buys
12 MR IRVING:     He has written a book, has he not?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Right.
14 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I think the question that you are really
15asking is who has edited this film that is in the machine.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, I was not asking that.
17 MR IRVING:     It has been re-edited by the Defence solicitors, of
19 MR RAMPTON:     No.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Sorry, can you just remain silent for a
21moment. Has it been re-edited by your team?
22 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, but it has been re-edited in such a way --
23yes, is the answer, I think. Can I just find out what
24actually did happen, because I was not there. (Pause for
25consultation). Yes, now I do have the full story. That is
26taken from Schmidt's film, my Lord, which was broadcast on

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 1Dispatches in this country. The commentary is in English
 2with a German accent, as one can hear. What Miss Rogers
 3and the solicitors did was to take out as much editorial
 4content as they possibly could, including emotive stuff
 5like music, if it has not an original place in the
 6programme, and as much commentary as possible.
 7 MR IRVING:     My Lord, If that were true, of course, there would
 8be English subtitles as well, but there are not any. How
 9would the English Dispatches audience have understood what
10David Irving was saying in German.
11 MR RAMPTON:     Because the commentary is in English in a German
13 MR IRVING:     We have listened to it ourselves. It is me
14speaking in German, it is Zundel speaking in German and
15there are no subtitles at all.
16 MR RAMPTON:     That is not commentary; that is original speech
17about putting Jews into telephone boxes so as to kill
19 MR IRVING:     It has been twice edited and is a totally
20unsatisfactory document.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It seems really to have been edited three
22times, probably originally by the people who organized
23Hagenau, then by Schmidt and then by your team.
24 MR RAMPTON:     It matters not the slightest. If Mr Irving
25disputes that that is him speaking those words in that
26company with those other people there, by all means let

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 1him do so but, once he accepts that that is an authentic
 2record, not a complete record but an authentic record of
 3what happened, then it becomes admissible evidence. What
 4weight is attached to it is another question.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think it is right as far as the identity of
 6other people are concerned. I am not happy with using
 7what they said in the absence of a ----
 8 MR IRVING:     Complete transcription.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- of at least a translation. So shall we
10carry on for the moment? We can come back to these films
11when there is a translation available, but shall we carry
12on for the moment just using them to illustrate who was
13present at these meetings who Professor Funke is able to
15 MR IRVING:     My Lord, the volume control will solve the
16problem. If the sound was turned down ----
17 MR RAMPTON:     No. When Mr Irving is speaking, I want his words
19 MR IRVING:     These are the redacted words as selected by the
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What I am going to say is that we will
22certainly use these films to see who was at the various
23meetings. If reliance is placed on what Mr Irving said at
24the meetings, then there must be a translation made rather
25than have it translated in the way that it is at the

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     There will be.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:      So, shall we proceed on that basis?
 3 MR RAMPTON:     Yes.
 4 (The video taped continued).
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Who is the man in the middle clapping?
 6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     This is again Ernst Zundel to the right of the middle and
 7to the left is Staglich.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Thank you. Sitting next to each other?
 9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Right.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is that one I think.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is Hagenau.
12 MR RAMPTON:     Now comes Munich, I think, in April 1990, does it
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     20th - 22nd April, is that right?
15 MR RAMPTON:     Yes.
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     The 21st.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Again, this is taken from the Dispatches programme.
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Your Lordship, the 21st.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     This is altogether a bigger event.
20 (The video tape continued).
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Pause there, please.
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     In the middle to the left, this is Raymund Bachman.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Who is he?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     He is an Austrian right-wing extremist who is perceived as
25a very good speaker. Then to the right of the middle,
26this is the Althans.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In the middle?
 2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     In the middle to the right, the right to Mr Bachman, the
 3next is Ewald Althans and the third person is also active
 4in this scene, but I cannot recall the name. I can check
 5it if I have a bit of time.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What does the rest of the banner above the hand say?
 7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     "Wahrheit macht frei" David Irving and the like, I do not
 9 MR IRVING:     "Ein Englander kemft um die jede Deutschlands".
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     "Ein Englander kemft um die jede Deutschlands", thank you,
11Mr Irving.
12 MR RAMPTON:     We know, but what is the message of "Wahrheit
13macht frei" in this context?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It means basically that truth produces freedom and relief,
15and that truth is related to a rechange of the Holocaust
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Does is have any resonance with some language used during
18the Nazi period?
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think we all know.
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It has resonance to "Arbeit macht frei".
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Which we find where?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     In the concentration camps but, of course, I do not know
23if this is directly related to it but it has
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You can leave that guesswork to us, thank you, Professor.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.

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