Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 27: Electronic Edition

Pages 51 - 55 of 183

<< 1-5181-183 >>
    So it is Faurisson -- can we just go back a couple of
 2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     This is Ernst Zundel in the back.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, I see. That is Faurisson on the right with the
 4stripe with the white shirt, is it?
 5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     On the right side.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Thank you.
 7     (The video continued to be played)
 8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     "I would have given a gift to him when I realized that he
 9was here". That is the gist. "So this devil lie that
10this Juden pack that the Jews gave to us Germans". That
11is a reference to the so-called Holocaust lie. This was a
12last sentence.
13 MR IRVING:     I was not aware we were going to be shown edited
14gobbets like this. We have no idea what that little piece
15or snatch of conversation was, whether he was quoting from
16a book or quoting from something that was said or what.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, I do not think he is was quoting from a
18book. I think, Mr Irving, I understand your concern
19but ----
20 MR IRVING:     If we are just looking at a rogues gallery, that is
21perfectly proper use of this footage.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think in the end what is going to have to
23happen is that I see all this material because it is
24impossible for me to form a view because I do not know
25what is coming next. We have not seen you at all but I
26know you were there, so I expect we are going to see you.

. P-51

 1 MR IRVING:     Well, we do not know if I am actually there at the
 2time these people were there or whether they are saying
 3that or not.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us wait and see when you feature.
 5 MR IRVING:     It has been heavily edited there, of course.
 6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     There to the back, if I may say so, this is the person in
 7the middle now, Christian Worch.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The young one?
 9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     The young one, right, in the middle, right in the middle.
10This was just a second back, if I may ask you -- now go
11further -- this person, so far I can identify him, of
12course it is with limits, as you can imagine, on the right
13side, seems to be Staglich.
14 MR RAMPTON:     With his head by the window?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Stop there, please. What is Mr Irving talking about in
17that extract?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     You know the reference is he is referring to the alleged
19excesses of eyewitnesses with respect to the Holocaust
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Pause please.
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     And then ----
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, pause. When you said "excesses", do you mean that
24there are more survivors than there should be?
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, I think exaggerations I think is the

. P-52

 1 MR RAMPTON:     Exaggerations, that is why I interrupted you.
 2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, and with this he very cynically, I would say, says
 3OK, "There was one, there was just one", that is the gist
 4of it, so far as I read it. Maybe there can be more
 5correct translations of these wordings. "There is one man
 6gas chamber there, you know, a kind of Sedan chair and
 7soldiers carried that around the landscape and then, like
 8a telephone cell, you have a ring and the soldier says,
 9 'OK, it is for you, Jew'". So this is the gist of it so
10far I read it but ----
11 MR IRVING:     Excuse me.
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     --- of course Mr Irving said it so he may ----
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Just pause.
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     --- translate it more precisely.
15 MR IRVING:     The word was not "excuse you", "it is for you,
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, we are going to get into a frightful
18tangle if we are going to go through the films having
19simultaneous translations.
20 MR RAMPTON:     No, no, not simultaneous translations, but it
21would be a false exercise on my part if Mr Irving were
22talking about the wild flowers in Alsace at that point.
23One has to know what the gist of these meetings were
24about ----
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I quite agree. No, I am just thinking it is
26better ----

. P-53

 1 MR RAMPTON:     --- for them to have any point at all.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Don't let us all talk at once it would be
 3better if we had a translation.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     It would be much better if we had a translation.
 5Before we close the case we will get translations and
 6transcripts, I expect. I will do my very best, but at the
 7moment, I am sorry, we do not have them.
 8 THE INTERPRETER:     It is easy to translate phrase by phrase,
 9this passage.
10 MR RAMPTON:     I am sorry, I cannot hear.
11 THE INTERPRETER:     It is easy to translate this passage phrase
12by phrase.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That will take a very long time.
14 MR RAMPTON:     Don't let us do that now.
15 MR IRVING:     The other point I would ask in cross-examination of
16this particular passage is that we have seen me speaking,
17we have heard me speaking and now we see instantly picture
18cross-cuts to a laughing audience, and we have no way of
19knowing, for they have only got one camera there, and it
20is done by clever editing. We do not know what they are
21laughing at.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I understand that point. Whether it is a
23good one or not, I am not so sure, but I understand the
24point you are making.
25 MR IRVING:     It is the editing point again, my Lord. Your
26Lordship would not allow the introduction of an edited

. P-54

 1document in which bits have been put in and bits have been
 2taken out. This is a document.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I entirely understand the point. Mr Rampton,
 4can you tell me this, and I should have asked before you
 5started playing it, who actually made this film? ----
 6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     That was done by those who organized the conference.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     I see.
 8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It was then given to Michael Schmidt. Michael Schmidt was
 9the person who was in this revisionist and the other scene
10for quite a period of time, and then had four days of
11videos. He was given this video by one of the main
12organizers, so far as I recall, and by Ernst Zundel
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Right, let us carry on.
15 MR RAMPTON:     I just want to chase that up. Did Schmidt then
16make a documentary film using this material?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, he did so, but the basic clips, of whatever he had of
18ours, of course, documented by the documenter of this
19conference, so we have again a problem of documents.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So far as we can tell, that is original film of the
21meeting at which we saw Mr Irving.
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Organized by themselves.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Who did the editing, that is the point?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Of course, Michael Schmidt did the editing. He shortened
25it and, of course, they had a longer version given by the
26organizers of this conference, that is to say, by Zundel

. P-55

<< 1-5181-183 >>