Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 27: Electronic Edition

Pages 41 - 45 of 183

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    Yes, this is a very interesting point, that you have a
 1agitations, to downplay this Nazi period, to restore, you
 2know, the kind of proud of the extreme Aryan racist
 3anti-Semitic nation. This is the bottom line of it. So
 4they conflate one and again, once and again.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do I understand what you have just said to involve, I hope
 6you do not mind a little piece of colloquial English, that
 7you are telling us that your familiarity with neo-Nazi and
 8denialist publications, utterances, speeches, and so on
 9and so forth, one of their themes is that the Jews had it
10coming to them and brought it on themselves?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, this is one of the most, if I may say personally,
12most striking things, that it is said that in the course
13of centuries or, to quote David Irving, of 3,000 years in
14one of his quotations, the Jews are responsible because
15they are disliked. Whether -- and the direction is that
16the Jews are the reasons for being disliked because of
17their various behaviour, alleged behaviours, and so they
18are responsible, they are so to speak ----
19 THE INTERPRETER:     They carry part of the guilt.
20 MR RAMPTON:     Sorry?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     They carry part of the guilt or the whole guilt that they
22were murdered, and in a quite illogical, irrational way,
23this is then changed by saying, "OK, but the Holocaust did
24not happen, at least not to the degree" so you have a
25double ----
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     One might ----

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 1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     --- double standard ----
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
 3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     --- double meaning, a kind of controversial in itself, but
 4this can only be solved by the distance and even hatred
 5against the Jews in that camp.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can I stick with what I was on? We have seen the passage
 7and other passages from Mr Irving's utterances that you
 8speak of, my question is this. Is that thought, really it
 9is all the Jews' own fault, if it did happen, which it did
10not, they deserved it or they brought it on themselves",
11is that a common theme amongst the denialist and neo-Nazi
12publications with which you are familiar in Germany?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It comes always to the fore. If you see Hagenau, you see
14all of a sudden Mr Zundel rousing his voice and saying,
15 "This Juden pack".
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What does that mean?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I do not know.
18 THE INTERPRETER:     "Pack of Jews".
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     A pack.
20 MR RAMPTON:     A pack of Jews?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It is a very negative connotation.
22 MR RAMPTON:     What, as though the were dogs or something?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It is a kind of bunch of people who are doing this dirty,
24ugly thing. It is a kind of slogan we know in Germany,
25"Juden pack", these people who are doing this bad things.
26 THE INTERPRETER:     "Pack" meaning low people with low

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 2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     So just a representation of aggression, of very aggression
 3and humiliating the Jews.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     This is the famous Ernst Zundel from Canada, is
 6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Right.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     Goodness me!
 8 MR IRVING:     There is no suggestion that I had used words like
10 MR RAMPTON:     There is a suggestion that Mr Irving was at this
11meeting and made a speech, is there not, to this audience?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     People like Mr Zundel?
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     At Hagenau, yes.
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Maybe he did not hear him, but he was there.
16 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. Hagenau is in Alsace, is it not? It is in
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, in Alsace.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then two others, finally, who are not on my list -- there
20may be others when we look at the tape -- Professor, one
21is a Spanish man, I think, called Pedro Verala, who is he?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It is again one of the -- you know, he is the successor of
23a bunch of neo-Nazis who fled to Spain because, as you may
24know, the Franco Spain was a kind of resort area for
25National Socialists.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. He is what? He is a neo-Nazi or revisionist? What

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 1is he?
 2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Both.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Both. Finally, then, a somewhat curious figure amongst
 4all these Aryans, somebody Ahmed Rami. Who is he?
 5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     He is a wide anti-Semite, to say the minimum.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Where does he come from?
 7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Stockholm, but original descent from Morocco. He is
 8talking in the second Leuchter Congress, you will see it
 9if you decide to.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     He speaks in French?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     He speaks in French. He is always talking about the
12Zionist Mafia who lead the world and this kind of, 20
13minutes in this video, so you will see how long you will
14view it.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you propose any further connection between Mr Irving
16and -- I have lost his name?
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The Spaniard.
18 MR RAMPTON:     Verala and Rami, other than that they appeared at
19this meeting in Munich together on 21st?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     So far as I know, but I have to check again in various
21revisionists meetings -- no, excuse me, no. David Irving
22was invited by this camp in Spain and spoke.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Oh, really? Do you know when?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Excuse me?
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     When?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     In that same, I have lost it, I have to check it, but in

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 1the late 80s, early 90s. I read the diaries from 1989 to
 2 '93 and there he was in Spain. But it must have been
 3quite successful, but I have to recall when it was.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Invited by?
 5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Give me a minute, so I will say to you in a minute.
 6 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Invited by Verala, is that what you are saying?
 7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, so they know each other. You know, it is a little
 8tiny group who interacted between each other on various
 9levels and various levels of intensity, so sometimes I get
10mixed up but not on the basic things.
11 MR RAMPTON:     Looking at the whole spread of material,
12Professor, looking at the whole spread of material which
13you have been through in detail, so far as Mr Irving's
14connections with these various people and groups are
15concerned, how deep would you say that his involvement in
16these affairs is?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I think very -- he was involved very much in this whole
18affairs. Not to get mixed up, I did a show picture to see
19this ----
20 THE INTERPRETER:     A graph.
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     --- a graph to represent this interactions, and you have,
22you know, the whole bench of revisionists from Tony
23Hancock, Peter Verala, Staglich, Valendi, Otto Ernst
24Remer, Ahmed Rami, Zundel, Zundel as one of the main
25persons, together with Christophersen and Mark Rebo of IHR
26in California, on the one hand, then you have an

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