Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 27: Electronic Edition

Pages 36 - 40 of 183

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    No. It is more precise. The demonstration in Halle, the
 1This is Thomas Dienel, the then NPD speaker, it is very
 2public, and on the other hand by Christian Worch. The
 3diary shows in that sense, I realize the surprise of David
 4Irving just a minute ago, that he was invited by Ursula
 5Worch ----
 6 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     That is what I was getting at.
 7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     -- To come to this rally. So it was a kind of conflation
 8of invitations, and by this he was in the scene. You know
 9that David Irving is a very good understander of German
10language. So he knew him by hearing him, by participating
11at that demonstration and at a very prominent level. That
12is what I am saying, not more, and I did not do anything
13more in the report.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you very much.
15 MR IRVING:     I am indebted to your Lordship for asking that
17 MR RAMPTON:     We go now to man called Gunter Deckert. Before
18I ask you about Gunter Deckert, do you know of any
19connection between Mr Irving and Herr Deckert?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     By his website.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     How do you mean? That, to me, is a slightly Delphic
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     They have a long interaction by communicating and
24referring to each other. He, Deckert, invited David
25Irving to speak in Weinheim at a given period of time, the
26early '90s, I think, in '90. So there was a clear cut

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 1each other knowledge of what they have stood for and that
 2they stand for.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can you tell me what sort of information they exchanged on
 4the website?
 5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I have to say only to a limit because it is so much to
 6read, if I see the web sites of David Irving that
 7I restrict myself, but to a degree he refers to the court
 8things Deckert was in because of the event in Weinheim.
 9Deckert got debated imprisonment by doing this event in
10early, in the early '90s, I think in '91. So David Irving
11is repeatedly referring to this kind of aftermath of this
13 MR IRVING:     It is actually an appeal for funds for the family
14of Deckert, is it not, while he is in prison?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Excuse me?
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, I think we had better just leave
17it to you to cross-examine later. It seems that Deckert
18is somebody you were in fairly regular contact with.
19 MR IRVING:     No problem with that one at all.
20 MR RAMPTON:     Well, then is this no problem about the contact?
21Can we know something about Herr Deckert himself and his
22views, please?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Deckert is one of those who is very near to the hardcore
24revisionists and he got the NPD Chair in '91 to '95, and
25he was one of the persons who radicalized in this period
26of radicalization of right-wing extremist movements in

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 1Germany because of the scenery, especially in East
 2Germany, he radicalized the NPD. This is, if I may say
 3so, out of the perspective of a social scientist, a very
 4interesting, you know, change at that period of time,
 5because that means in the following years that the
 6interaction between the neo-Nazis and the NPD grew. And
 7finally after all this neo-Nazi -- no, after a bunch of
 8these neo-Nazi groups were banned by the German
 9authorities in '92 and '93 and '94 and '95, the NPD was
10the so-called still formally legal but ultra right-wing
11extremist party who took over, and organized this little
12tiny neo-Nazi groups to a degree in their camp.
13     So we have the interesting thing, just to finish
14it with one sentence, that at the end of the century we
15had a kind of joining efforts of the Christian Worch camp
16on the one hand and the NPD camp on the other conflating
17in the demonstration of 29th January through the Bahnhof
18Gate against the attempt of a memorial.
19 MR IRVING:     What year was that? 29th January what year?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     2000, just to give a kind of overview how this conflation
21took place.
22 MR RAMPTON:     Good. I have only three others on my list at the
23moment. We may have to ask further questions when we look
24at the tapes, Professor. A man called Thies
25Christophersen, tell us about him. Tell us, first,
26whether he has been associated with Mr Irving, will you?

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 1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Very much so because Thies Christophersen is one of the
 2networkers who is on the very radical side of the clear
 3cut Holocaust denier. He has some resonance in these
 4groups by having been in Auschwitz as a kind of lower
 5officer in the kind of garden area near to the camps. So
 6he pretend to know all about Auschwitz, and he wrote one
 7of these famous books "Die Auschwitz-Luge", "The Auschwitz
 8Lie". So he organized that he was very sharp in
 9presenting his case. So he was caught, he was attacked by
10the judicial authorities, so he had to leave Germany.
11     He resided in -- he lived in Kolant in Denmark
12for a period of time and, to make it very clear, he is one
13of those who combined this radical revisionists with the
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Right, so, in other words, he makes a bridge or link?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, he is one of the bridges the linkers.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The neo-Nazis on the one side?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And the Holocaust deniers on the other?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes. So he was also responsible for this Hagenau meeting
21to a degree and the revisionists' meetings at that time.
22He died then in the '90s.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, when we look at the Hagenau meeting which is the
24first one we will look at, it is quite short, that was
25organized by Christophersen, is that right?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     So far I recall, yes.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And I think we are going to see, but you will tell us
 2whether we are right, Arthur Butts?
 3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     We do not see him, but it is said that, according to the
 4sources, that he is there.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     OK, yes. Christian Worch whom you can identify?
 6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Karl Philipp you think?
 8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I think. The sources says it, but we cannot see him in
 9that meeting. I think we will see him in another meeting.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Right. Wilhelm Staglich?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     So far as I recall, he could -- you could see him.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If Worch and Staglich are both there, then, on the one
13hand, you have a neo-Nazi Worch and, on the other hand,
14you have a denier in Staglich?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, this is a very interesting point, that you have a
16kind interaction to say the minimum between this kind of
17revisionists and this kind of neoNazis, that has, of
18course, something to do with the ideas behind. So there
19was a conflation. And to say in one sentence more about
20that, especially in Germany and Austria, if in any sense
21neo-Nazis can get some success, political success, they
22have to do as the first thing to by any means try to
23rehabilitate National Socialism as far as it is possible.
24This is the crucial point. By denying, by relativizing,
25by blaming the Jews as those who made it up or who did it
26or who let it do, so by all various kinds of rhetorics,

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