Irving v. Lipstadt
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 27: Electronic Edition
Pages 31 - 35 of 183
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1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Go ahead.
2 MR RAMPTON: S W I E R C Z E K. Yes? Good. Who is he?
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] He belongs to this first mentioned Kuhnen crew, or
4Gesinnungsgemeinschaft, and he organized an own little
5tiny group more in the south to make this neo-Nazi cause
6along the lines of Michael Kuhnen, the National Offensive
7NO, and Swierczek invited David Irving, so far I recall,
8in '91. The success of these events were modest.
9 Q. [Mr Rampton] Thank you.
10 MR IRVING: Did you say events or event?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] There were two invitations, So far as the diaries and
12your sources says, and they were both, if I recall, in the
13effect of selling books and presenting to a bigger
15 MR RAMPTON: I have not asked about the policies and ideologies
16individually of each of these individuals. You said there
17is an element of Holocaust denial in many of them, of the
18heirs of Michael Kuhnen, you said there was anti-Semitism
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, very much so.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton] Is this true of somebody like Swierczek?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes. In this whole neo-Nazi camp they are only little
23differentiations because they have to stick to their card
25 Q. [Mr Rampton] Let me ask you a general question then. Do any of these
26neo-Nazi individuals, or groups of individuals, have a
1policy which is Nazi, but not anti-Semitic and
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I have to be very modest in answering this. I did not see
4any hint of this Kuhnen crew, the Gesinnungsgemeinschaft,
5that they distanced from that kind of rhetoric, agitation,
6ideology, world view. No, not any person of this
7I mentioned, not any person in any situation, so far I got
8the datas, so it is a clear cut thing. They are joining a
9kind of same world view.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton] I cannot remember whether we have dealt with Karl Philipp
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, we have.
13 MR RAMPTON: Good. I will pass backwards over him. Do you
14know who Ditlieb Felderer is?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Just a bit. He is a Swedish joiner of this revisionist
16camp, and also politically very active.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton] I think we are going to see him in one or other of these
18tapes, are we not? What about somebody called Thomas
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Thomas Dienel is one of the outspoken neo-Nazis in East
21Germany, so he is one of the East Germans who took this
22cause after '89. He changed his views and parties, but he
23was one of the most crude or crudest anti-Semites.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton] Is it true that in July 1992 a Jewish leader called Heinz
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
1 Q. [Mr Rampton] And what was the reaction of Dienel and his friends to
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] They made bad, very cynical, jokes on that.
4 MR IRVING: My Lord, I think it should be properly stated
5whether any allegation is made that I have ever met this
6Mr Dienel, who is obviously an extremely unsavoury
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am trying to keep a track of the extent to
10 MR RAMPTON: That is always going to be my next question.
11I just want to get a picture of this nice Mr Dienel first.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Before we paint a picture of him, he is not
13one of those who has a section in RWE one or two?
14 MR RAMPTON: No, he does not. The reason I mentioned him is
15partly that he is mentioned in this biography section in
16the appendix, and one can read for oneself.
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes. I may just allude to Thomas Dienel, he is of some
18importance, if I may say so, your Lordship.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can you start though, by explaining, if
20may say so, Mr Rampton, what the connection with Mr Irving
22 MR IRVING: Thank you.
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, of course. The connection is very simple and maybe
24very short. He was the inviter, together with Christian
25Worch, of the 9th November Halle meeting.
26 MR IRVING: Never heard of him in my life before.
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You will get your chance, Mr Irving. We must
2not make this too conversational.
3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] You heard him. He spoke before you spoke.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Professor, can we keep some sort of form to
5this? We have a system here. It is Mr Rampton
6questioning at the moment, so do not start conversations
7with Mr Irving.
8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Excuse me. Maybe I should add something to Thomas
9Dienel? Excuse me. I rely on your questions.
10 MR IRVING: I am sorry, I interrupted. Perhaps we ought to
12 MR RAMPTON: We can read on page 142 of the appendix what sort
13of a man Thomas Dienel is on your account. Is he one of
14those that we shall see on the film of the rally at Halle?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, I alluded to that just before. He was the one of the
16organisers of the Halle rally, together with Christian
17Worch. It was a joint action and at that time, to my best
18knowledge, he was a member of the NPD, the National
19Democratic Party of Germany, so they did a joint effort,
20the neo-Nazis and this ultra right-wing extremist NPD.
21But then Thomas Dienel changed and organized a new clear
22cut neo-Nazi group, the DNP. It is maybe not of such an
23interest, but the point is that he was one of them at that
24period of time, the most outspoken crude anti-Semites.
25He, after the death of the famous Jewish representative
26Heinz Galinski, by the way, survivor of Auschwitz, who in
1a way never could escape the memory of Auschwitz, if I may
2say so. I knew him very well. An effort at that city
3where he stayed, Thomas Dienel, he took part in an action
4at the 20th July '92, following the death of this leader,
5Heinz Galinski, of the Jewish communities, pigs' heads
6were thrown to the garden of the Jewish community with
7labels that read "Every pig dies, you too Heinz". That
8means Heinz Galinski. In '92, Dienel was found saying
9unfortunately the younger generation has not yet killed
11 Q. [Mr Rampton] What age of man is this Thomas Dienel?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] He is in the 40s, I think.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am still, if I may say so, unsure on what
14basis you are suggesting, Professor, that there is a
15connection between ----
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I did not say connection.
17 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] Well, you said, I think, that Dienel, together with the
18Worches, was responsible for inviting Irving to speak at
19the Halle rally?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes. Then I said you can call it connection. It is a
21connection for that given invitation and action.
22 Q. [Mr Justice Gray] But why do you say Dienel was involved in inviting Irving
23to speak? Where do you get that from?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] No. It is more precise. The demonstration in Halle, the
25Halle rally was organized and the invitation came from two
26persons, or two groups represented by these two persons.
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