Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 27: Electronic Edition

Pages 26 - 30 of 183

<< 1-5181-183 >>
    It is all sorts of interactions to prepare things, to take
 1combine their groupings and you will see it on the video.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can we just pause there?
 3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     These summaries are taken from your report. We can see an
 5illustration of what you are talking about, my Lord, if we
 6take the second file, RWE file, and turn to tab 11. Could
 7the witness please be given that? Could you turn please,
 8Professor, to the second page in the summary which you
 9will find at the beginning of that tab? It has a (ii) at
10the bottom of the page and we are looking at some dates.
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Say it again, excuse me.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The second page of the summary at the beginning.
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We see some dates from March 1990 to August 1991.
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Right.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We do not need to read them out unless anybody wants me
17to. Would you just read them to yourself and continue
18down to the end of 9th November '91 on the following page.
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes. (Pause for reading).
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now, if one reads on, one sees that they went on
21corresponding with each other through until June 1993.
22Can you please just look at the entry for the 1st January
231992? It is the middle of page (iii).
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You, or rather Miss Rogers, has written summarising your
26evidence, letter P, that is Mr Irving, to the Worches,

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 1using the informal address "du". What does that signify
 2in German if one addresses people in that form?
 3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It signifies a close relation, that they know each other
 4by private level.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     How do you then respond to a suggestion, if it be made,
 6that these Worch people were just informal slight
 7acquaintances of Mr Irving who sometimes turned up to his
 9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No. They are of central importance. You let me read the
10page before, and it is stated that they met not only at
11the 3rd March but on the next day, Althans and Worch
12together with the plaintiff. Then Althans organized
13something with the help of Worch. That is the 21st April,
14the first revisionist Congress in Munich that was a joint
15organization. It is very interesting that you have
16joining the revisionists and the like with these kind of
17clear cut neo-Nazis. Then they met again the next morning
18with Wilhelm Staglich, another ----
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am going to ask you about that entry for 22nd April in a
20moment. You say a close relationship, had Worch been
21present on these occasions when Mr Irving has spoken?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Has Worch spoken on the same occasions?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It is several times the case. For example, at the second
25so-called Leuchter Congress at the 23rd March '91 and
26again at the 9th November '91, and so far, yes, these are

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 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
 3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     They planned to invite Mr Irving to the Wansiedel
 4meeting. This is very important for this scene. The
 5Wansiedel meetings every year in August, remembers the
 6death of the hero in that circle, Rudolf Hess. Mr Irving
 7did not come to the Wansiedel meeting because he did not
 8want, as the diary shows, to take sides openly with
 9Michael Kuhnen, but, as we see, he did with the other
10person. This is Christian Worch.
11 MR IRVING:     Would the witness just explain what he means by
12taking sides with Michael Kuhnen?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     So far I recall your diary, but you know it better.
14 MR IRVING:     May I put it to the witness that in fact I made it
15quite plain I would not attend if Kuhnen was going to be
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Right. Taking sides. But, you know, if I may add -- no,
18I should not. I see. Go on.
19 MR RAMPTON:     Who is Rudiger Hess?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     He is one of the activists in the scene and the son of
21Rudolf Hess.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can you turn to the entry in the summary for 22nd April
231990 please?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving's diary records that he had breakfast on the
26morning after the Wahrheitnachtfrei in Munich with

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 1Staglich, Hancock and the Worches. Who is Wilhelm
 3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Wilhem Staglich is a former judge, and is very active in
 4these revisionists circles, quite a while, a very old
 5man. I think he died in the middle of the 90s.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Does revisionism in that sense include any element of
 7Holocaust denial?
 8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It is often the case, and with him it is.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     With him it is? I am going to ask you some other names
10now. I am going to go backwards through this summary that
11you have produced. Who is Udo Walendy?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I think he is one of the most outspoken persons in the
13Holocaust denial network and activities. He did and he is
14doing a magazine. I have some copies of that in my hotel,
15so I can show it if it is necessary. He presented to the
16German audience the Arthur Butz Holocaust denial attempt.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Hoax of the 20th century"?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Right, in the 70s. I am not quite sure, the sources say
19that he attended Hagenau, this revisionist meeting in
20November 89.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We are going to have a look at that.
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     So he is the most, if I may say so, outspoken and
23differentiated in trying to make this cause.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you know whether Mr Irving has been associated with
25Staglich or Walendy?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, they met in their circles of course, in their

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 1revisionists meetings.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     How do you know that?
 3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     By the sources, with respect to this both persons, but
 4I have to look them up because it is such a bunch of
 5people who are interacting, interconnecting, meeting
 6networking and so forth. So forgive me that I have to
 7look it up.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     Well we will see Staglich in some of the films and
 9perhaps Walendy, and we can see already that Mr Irving has
10had breakfast with Wilhelm Staglich on 22nd April 1990.
11We get that from his own diary, do we not?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
13 MR IRVING:     That is the only entry in the diary which mentions
14it, is it not?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     He was there around, you know. He was there often
16around. This is the entry mentioning, but, as you know,
17on the day before he was there too, and you too.
18 MR IRVING:     In the audience.
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     In the audience, but you know the audience, and you know
20Mr Staglich, I think.
21 MR RAMPTON:     What about somebody called Michael Swierczek?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Maybe I should spell it for the court?
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think it might be helpful because sometimes
25the transcriber cannot really cross refer. That is the

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