Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 27: Electronic Edition

Pages 21 - 25 of 183

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    I pass from Althans to somebody called -- I will take them
 1just told us, but I am coming back to some other names
 2afterwards. What about Gottfried Kussel, the Austrian?
 3Where does he stand in this? What is his position?
 4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Gottfried Kussel is perceived as one of the three dominant
 5successors of the Kuhnen crew, the
 6Gesinnungsgemeinschaft. Aside of Christian Worch, who was
 7the organisational leader, so to speak, and aside of a
 8third person, wait a minute, Gottfried Kussel, Worch,
 9I come to him in a minute.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     All right.
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Gottfried Kussel was and is an Austrian who joined this
12kind of attempt of renewal of the Nazi party, and he was
13eager to prepare paramilitary groups by so-called
14Wehrsportgruppe -- can you translate that?
15 THE INTERPRETER:     Military exercise groups, military style
16support groups.
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     So he was very active in that, it was his part.
18 MR RAMPTON:     Dressing up in battle dress with guns?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Right.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Marching around in the woods?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     And using old weapons they found from the Second World War
22or using Bundeswar weapons, if they get them, using
23weapons of especially the army of Austria.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you take that kind of activity seriously?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I did not do it up to 89, I have to say, because up to 89
26there was such tiny little groups that we just looked over

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 1as social scientists, but since they got some influence
 2and even widened this influence in the early 90s, you
 3may recall that there was a brutal wave of violence
 4against foreigners with 70 killed peoples within three
 5years. So with this I was very eager to analyse it a bit
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes I understand that.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Professor, when did the Berlin Wall come
 9down? I should know.
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     9th November 89, so two years before this Halle meeting we
11are coming to.
12 MR RAMPTON:     I have two diversions for you, I am afraid. The
139th November is an anniversary of something else, is it
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes. It is the most loaded kind of anniversary date we
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Apart from the 30th January perhaps, or the 20th April?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No, it is even more loaded, if I may say so.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You are a bit elliptical at this stage.
20 MR RAMPTON:     The 30th January is the speech in the Reichstag in
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Hitler's birthday, if I may add, is 20th April.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Tell us about the 9th November.
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     There was a coup d'etat of Hitler and his comrades at the
259th November 1923, the so-called ----
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Putsch?

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 1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     March to the Feltan Halle. You discuss it here.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     Tell me about that.
 3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes. Of course 15 years later, 9th November, the
 4so-called Reichskristallnacht, the night of the broken
 5glasses, and again 9th November 1989. This was, by the
 6way, the reason that the authorities did not dare to use
 7this as a kind of national anniversary date.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No. As you said, it is a bit loaded. Do you know whether
 9Mr Irving has had any contacts with Gottfried Kussel?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I do not know. Again, the same as it is with Kuhnen, if
11I may say so, on the same level. They were at this same
12meeting, especially in Halle, and he has seen him, so far
13as the video shows, but maybe he sees it different. But
14the video is, I think, very clear on that. And the like.
15So no mentioned connections in the diaries and elsewhere.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now we come to somebody who I think we do find fairly
17often in the diaries, two people, Christian Worch and his
18wife Ursula or Uschi Worch. Do they appear in the
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes. This is, I would say, the interactions between David
21Irving and Christian and Ursula Worch, as intense as they
22were with Ewald Althans.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Characterize, if you will.
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I just counted the interactions so far we got it from the
25disclosures, from other sources and from the diary of
26David Irving, 26 in three years. A lot of interaction

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 1between others and David Irving and the Worches.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Others such as whom?
 3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Others like Karl Philipp, another very interesting person
 4in this network.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am coming to him. Karl Philipp. Anybody else?
 6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes. Christian Worch was one of the main organizers, as
 7I said, of the neo-Nazi movement between 89 and 93, the
 8period that is of interest here. By the way, furthermore,
 9so he is at the centre of this Kuhnen crew after his
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Is he still active?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     He is sill active. He organised a demonstration at the
1329th, so one day before the 30th January 2000 in Berlin,
14against the attempt to build a memorial of the Holocaust,
15a very neo-Nazi like demonstration, very ----
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can I just ask this? Are you saying that
17Mr Irving and Karl Philipp have had contact with each
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, very much so. Karl Philipp, Ewald Althans and
20Christian Worch are those with whom David Irving had the
21most intense interactions at that time.
22 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I think he ought to specify, if he says
23I had 26 contacts, what he means by contacts.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think that was Karl Philipp
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No, that was Christian Worch.

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 1 MR IRVING:     If we are to use that kind of statistic, I think it
 2would be useful just to telephone ----
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If you want to, up to a point.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     Absolutely right.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am anxious to get the broad picture at the
 6moment, but can you explain what you mean by interactions
 7or contacts?
 8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It is all sorts of interactions to prepare things, to take
 9sides, to be invited. So, for example, at the 3rd March
10of '90 David Irving was invited to the group. He
11especially had, I have to say, in Hamburg, the so-called
12nationalist, this is a bunch of little tiny groups. So he
13was invited to give one of David Irving's speeches there,
14and there were, of course, the Nationalists, so part of
15this neo-Nazi camp, in that region, that is to say in
16Hamburg, and, on the other hand, new invited East Germans
17around the new built other group like the Deutsche
18Alternative. So just to say the minimum that groups of
19the neo-Nazi camp around Hamburg and groups of the new
20organized groupings of East Germany came together to hear
21David Irving at the 3rd March of '90. This kind of
22interaction, preparing speeches, tours and the like. The
23same holds true, if I may add this, in preparation of the
24event of the 9th November '91, in Halle. This Halle event
25was interesting in the regrouping and further organizing
26of the neo-Nazi movement in the early 90s. They tried to

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