Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 27: Electronic Edition

Pages 166 - 170 of 183

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you.
 2 MR IRVING:     There is Michael Kuhnen.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Kuhnen is in the list already.
 4 MR IRVING:     He is not in the list.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     All right.
 6 MR IRVING:     Gary Lauck.
 7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Lauck.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     I did not mention Lauck, but if Lauck is important
 9let us have him.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You are going to get a list of names tomorrow
12 MR IRVING:     Is Dr Frey included in the list?
13 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, Dr Frey was mentioned. He is in a slightly
14different category because he is DVU, but the Professor
15has explained why he puts DVU in, what shall I call, a
16slightly milder version of the radically neo-Nazi, other
18 MR IRVING:     Professor Funke, Dr Frey is the Chairman of the
19DVU, is he not?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Right.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is the DVU a democratically organized body?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No, not at all.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Not at all?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Not at all to the gazettes, the law of the parties, that
25includes inner party democracy, democratic procedures
26within the party system. This is ruled by special laws

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 1that are of interest in the public in these months in
 2Germany. So it is very clear what the law said, and it is
 3very clear that the DVU in its internal organization
 4failed to apply to this law.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but of course the main established political parties
 6also do not comply with a lot of the laws?
 7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I alluded to that.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, Chancellor Kohl has been in trouble recently, has he
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us move on.
11 MR IRVING:     If I draw your attention to paragraph 3 ----
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     He is not the Chancellor any more.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Ex-chancellor. 3.2.5, you refer to the disparagement of
14democratic institutions and persons, which is an element
15of right-wing extremism.
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     3?
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Page 22, I am over the page. It is line 5.
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Line 5.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Am I right in saying, and this is confirmed by paragraph
204.3.1 on page 46, that the DVU has fought countless
21election battles under the normal election rules, has it
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is neither here nor there, Mr Irving.
25Come on.
26 MR IRVING:     It has never resorted to violent or revolutionary

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 1means, has it?
 2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Say it again?
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     It has never resorted to violent or revolutionary means of
 4conducting politics?
 5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Not as the party, but in the party, as I said, there were
 6leanings to skinheads, violent skinheads, there were
 7leanings and associations and actions by DVU members to
 8this kind of violence against foreigners. There was this
 9kind of support of the Wehrsportgruppe Hofmann, a very
10violent group in the early 80s or in the late 70s.
11Hofmann was then fined. So not in the centre, they were
12very cautious to circumvent any illegalising procedures.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was politics for a time in Germany very violent when the
14East Germans Stazi were providing funds?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I do not know what time you are referring to.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, were there violent demonstrations in Germany which
17required meetings to be protected?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving ----
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     What time are you referring to?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- I thought we had agreed we were going to
21get on to the positive case that is made against you, and
22discussing whether there was violence in German politics
23when the Stazi was financing it is, I think, just too
24nebulous for the purposes of these proceedings.
25 MR IRVING:     Well, the witness mentioned the use of paramilitary
26people to protect the meetings, and that was invited by

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 1that. On 3.2.24, paragraph 3.2.24, you mention my keeping
 2company with Rudel and Remer: David Irving was keeping
 3company with Nazis like Otto Ernst Remer and Hans Ulrich
 4Rudel. We are not interested in Rudel, he is not on the
 5list, but you say that I have kept company with General
 6Remer. Have you seen any documents in my private diaries
 7or elsewhere showing me keeping company with Remer?
 8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I refer here to the data of the Schleswig-Holstein in '82,
 9and that is it.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. So you rely entirely in making that statement on a
11report of the OPC?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     In that respect, right.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Of the OPC, and his Lordship is not going to pay any
14attention to what the OPC says. Are you aware from the
15proceedings of this trial that I have produced a one-page
16diary entry showing me interviewing General Remer for the
17purpose of the Goebbels book and this was the only meeting
18I had with him?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     If you say so.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you seen any other entries in my diaries indicating
21meetings with General Otto Ernst Remer, apart from
22occasions when I have spoken and he has been one of many
23faces in the audience? You have not seen any other
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It seems that this quotation of the OPC, of
26Schleswig-Holstein, is an overstatement.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     An overstatement, yes.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can I help you, Mr Irving, by saying that
 3this seems to me precisely the sort of way in which it is
 4helpful to cross-examine.
 5 MR IRVING:     Yes.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is really intended by way of guidance.
 7 MR IRVING:     So, effectively, notwithstanding what we have seen
 8on the video tapes of General Remer being present at
 9meetings which I have spoken at, you would not say that
10I have had close contacts with him?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I would not say.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. 3.2.25 when I address the DVU rally, one of Dr
13Frey's rallies on freedom for Rudolf Hess, you object to
14my use of the word "martyrdom" or "martyr" for Rudolf
15Hess? I think we can leave that. It is not really
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, I can allude to this, I can explain it, if it is of
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Paragraph 3.3.2, at page 32, you say the OPC report of
201993, you are quoting that. What year does that refer to,
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     The second ----
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is this one of Dr Frey's newspapers that is being referred
24to there?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     

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