Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 27: Electronic Edition

Pages 161 - 165 of 183

<< 1-5181-183 >>
    Can I say something else as well? Mr Irving is
 1this, that or the other contradiction about this, that or
 2the other figure. Where, however, the central case, as in
 3some of the historical stuff, is not dealt with, I think
 4I am entitled to make the assumption, maybe a provisional
 5assumption or a rebuttable assumption, that the case is
 6not really contested. For example, Mr Irving has already
 7said that he accepts that he had a long, or whatever the
 8word is, association with Althans and that Gunter Deckert
 9was a friend of his. Now, if there is total silence, for
10example, in relation to the Worches, then I shall draw
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I agree with that and I think, Mr Irving,
13that you can take it that I will only concern myself with
14the alleged association you have with the individuals
15whose names we have just gone through, and with any
16organizations which it can be shown by the Defendants
17those individuals are directly connected with.
18 MR IRVING:     I was about to mention the organizations, my Lord,
19because we have looked at individuals, but I am also
20accused of associating with organisations, both in Germany
21and elsewhere.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Only through these individuals, I think it is
23fair to say.
24 MR RAMPTON:     And this is Germany only at the moment. The other
25people that have come have drifted in through, well,
26Zundel is actually a bit more than the side of the

. P-161

 1picture; other people have come from France, Spain,
 2Austria and America, and they of course do count in their
 3own landscaped.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     There are only about four altogether.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     But Zundel is separate. He must not be
 6forgotten. He after all was the cause of Mr Leuchter's
 7martyrdom in Toronto.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think a list would be helpful. We have it
 9on the transcript, Mr Rampton, at some stage, in fact
10I think overnight, if you would, a list of those things,
11plus any non-Germans.
12 MR RAMPTON:     All right.
13 MR IRVING:     I will cross-examine just on those tomorrow, my
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
16 MR RAMPTON:     I do not think, well, I do not know. I do not say
17any more about that at the moment. We will see.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, certainly. I am encouraging you I think
19to make a start, if you would, this evening.
20 MR IRVING:     Yes.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We have a bit more time.
22 MR RAMPTON:     If Mr Irving is in difficulty, there are some
23things I should like to mention while he finds his place,
24as it were. I now have the disk of the Eichmann memoirs,
25which I will hand to Mr Irving at the close of play, but
26on this condition for the time being. The copyright in

. P-162

 1this version belongs to the Israeli Government. They have
 2consented that it should be used for the purposes of this
 3case, but rather like the daily transcripts it cannot go
 4on to Mr Irving's website.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not sure it is a question of copyright
 6so far as I am concerned. It is more a question of the
 7implied obligation in relation to ----
 8 MR RAMPTON:     I have given them an undertaking personally that
 9it will not be used for any purpose ----
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, but I think it is a confidentiality
11point so far as these court proceedings are concerned, and
12not a copyright point.
13 MR RAMPTON:     Except that they have got the copyright on these.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sure they have, but I am not so much
15concerned with that as with the fact you are disclosing it
16and it this is therefore subject to the implied
18 MR RAMPTON:     Not to use it for any other purpose.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     At all events, until it is used.
20 MR RAMPTON:     It will become public knowledge in due course, in
21which case it can go on anybody's website, but for the
22present -- there are terrible lawyer words about
23undertakings being muttered in my ear.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     There is implied undertaking.
25 MR RAMPTON:     Exactly.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     As I am sure you know.

. P-163

 1 MR IRVING:     The implied undertaking evaporates. Once it has
 2been mentioned in open court, my Lord, the implied
 3undertaking is destroyed.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I wondered whether that point would ----
 5 MR RAMPTON:     No. No, that is completely wrong. Mr Irving's
 6law is pretty poor in many respects and it is completely
 7wrong in this respect. The implied undertaking lasts
 8until the court has read the document or it has been read
 9in court.
10 MR IRVING:     Mentioned.
11 MR RAMPTON:     No.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This is an argument that I am hoping I will
13not have to resolve, because I am not sure it is quite as
14simple as that.
15 MR RAMPTON:     I will not hand it over without the undertaking.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, are you prepared to give me your
18 MR IRVING:     I will give the undertaking not to make any
19untoward use of it, yes.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, not good enough. Are you prepared to
21give me your undertaking until we can resolve this
22question, and we can set aside a little time to argue it
23if needs be, that you will not make use of this tape you
24are being handed otherwise than for the purposes of these
25proceedings and, in particular, will not put it on your

. P-164

 1 MR IRVING:     For the purposes of this litigation, indeed, my
 2Lord, yes, I give the undertaking.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     Thank you very much. What in fact the Israelis
 4have told us is that the version which will be made
 5available to the public will not be this electronic
 6version; it will be a printed version.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, fine. That can be handed over.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     Very well.
 9 MR IRVING:     Thank you.
10 MR RAMPTON:     I think I am wrong about what I just said about
11the law. My apologies to Mr Irving.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think you are wrong too, but I did not like
13to say so!
14 MR IRVING:     So who was right then?
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, you were, Mr Irving. It is an unusual
16and rather curious position, but I think you are right.
17 MR IRVING:     I have been in trouble about this before, that is
18why I am familiar with it.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Anyway, let us press on. Can you make a
20start on what we have all agreed now is really the guts of
21Professor Funke's report?
22 MR IRVING:     Yes. I think I am right in saying, my Lord, there
23were actually three more names than those listed in their
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. One is Zundel. One is the Spaniard.
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Verala.

. P-165

<< 1-5181-183 >>