Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 27: Electronic Edition

Pages 16 - 20 of 183

<< 1-5181-183 >>
    She will be able to find them eventually, but they
 1are in the sequence of my questions rather than your
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is very helpful, Mr Irving.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     Tell us now about the relationship, if there is
 5one, between Mr Althans and Mr Irving, Professor.
 6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     If I may say so, it is a very close relationship, so far
 7I got it from the diaries. Of course, this is a limited
 8source, but also by the disclosures and by other social
 9scientists, researchers. Althans was very active in that
10period of time as a kind of mediator of the Zundel, of the
11Ernst Zundel, one of the leading revisionists, and he was
12a kind of pupil, if I may say so, of the late Otto Ernst
13Remer, one of the so-called heroes of the neo-Nazi scene.
14 MR RAMPTON:     If I hold my hand up, can you pause because it
15means that something you have said has prompted another
16question? We will come back to Althans in a moment.
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     OK. I will restrict myself. Excuse me.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, only if I hold my hand up otherwise you continue.
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I will look at you.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can you just tell us a little bit about is it Otto Ernst
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Otto Ernst Remer, right.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Who was he? Is he still alive?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No, he died in the middle, in the later '90s.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Tell us first who he was.
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     He is perceived as one of the heroes of the crushing down

. P-16

 1of the coup attempt of the resistance movement during the
 2Nazi period in 20th July 1944. He was in one of the
 3Berlin battalions to crush the coup d'etat attempt down
 4and since then, after '45, he was perceived.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What rank in the Army did he hold at the time when he
 6crushed the 20th July plot?
 7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     So far I recall, I am not quite sure, I have to look it
 8up, a Major. That is a kind of middle high range below
 9the General level.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, we know what a Major is, I think. It is roughly the
11same, I imagine, in Germany. What rank did he achieve
12after he had crushed the coup?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     He got up, but I cannot recall to what degree.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Sorry, I should not have interrupted you. You continue
15with his place, please in this scenario which you are
16painting for us.
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     So maybe I should say two sentences to Remer to finish
18this ----
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, then we will go back to Althans?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     --- for that period of time. He was then very active in
21one of the early neo-Nazi circles, after '45. So he was
22with founder of the Sozialistische
23Reichspartei -- cofounder, excuse me, of the Socialist
24Reichs Party, I would say, and these were clear cut people
25who tried to renew National Socialism. If you may imagine
26that at that time there was a lot of applause in parts of

. P-17

 1the population in Germany, and because of that but also
 2by, you know, convincing value reasons, this party was
 3forbidden in '52.
 4     So after that the famous Fritz Bauer who did the
 5Auschwitz trial in Frankfurt had a court from the state
 6side against court ----
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Action?
 8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     --- procedure against Remer statements in the early '50s.
 9So there was really something to him. Then he stayed
10course, if I may say so, throughout the '50, '60s, '70s
11and got some resonance again in the '80s and especially in
12the '90s with a very harsh, I would say, neo-Nazi course
13of the so-called Remer Depechert(?). This is a little
14magazine, kind of magazine.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You told us that in some sense Althans was a protege of
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Right.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     How exactly did that happen and what does it mean?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     As a young boy, Althans is in the '30s still, of 14 or 16,
20he joined Remer and got very intense lessons by Remer's
21convictions, and he referred himself in several
22statements, I mean Althans referred himself to this Remer
23like convictions and he said that they came from him to a
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now, what relationship does or has Althans had with some
26of the other people you have mentioned, for example, the

. P-18

 1Worchs and Kussel?
 2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     They were at the period that is of interest, in the period
 3that is of interest, very close. So they interacted, they
 4had their quarrels, but they interacted a lot to prepare
 5revisionist congresses, demonstrations, and I may add to
 6widen their influence to the new free zone for influence,
 7that is to say, the former GDR, East Germany. That was a
 8very fruitful field after the falling down of the Wall.
 9Immediately after that ----
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Explain as briefly as you can why that was a fruitful
11field for the activities of these people.
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     The authoritarian GDR regime lost not only control but all
13sorts of convictions that many people in authoritarian
14regime. This took place especially in the 80s, I am very
15sure. So a lot of various youngster groups spread and
16came to the fore, leftist, rightist and, in the middle of
17the 80s, in the face of the decay of the former
18authoritarian GDR regime, the extreme right-wing
19skinheads, very violent groups, took over in the scene out
20of the formal youth groupings and youth movement. Since
2186 or 87 we have had really a fascist scene that were very
22brutal against foreigners already at that period. So they
23were there without a control in 89 and early 90. This was
24the situation in which the far right groups, and
25especially these neo-Nazis we are talking about, said, OK
26this is a chance to widen our influence, to make and to

. P-19

 1steer and to be an avant-garde of male youngsters movement
 2of that kind.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We are going to see the film shortly. One such occasion
 4as you have described with lots of these young skinheads
 5took place at Halle in November 91, did it not?
 6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, this is right, but also before and after.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Where is Halle is my question? We are ignorant English in
 8this court!
 9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Halle is around one hundred kilometres or so south to
10Berlin in East Germany former GDR.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In the former GDR?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Right.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Rampton, I am not sure I am aware of the
14extent of Mr Irving's connections with the likes of Otto
15Remer. Althans you have dealt with I think. Otto Remer:
16Is there a connection alleged.
17 MR RAMPTON:     I have not dealt with him. I will do that. I do
18not want to take too long. At the same time I do not want
19to cut any corners. Are you aware whether or not
20Mr Irving had any contacts with Otto Ernst Remer before he
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I think so. During the meetings.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do we see Otto Ernst Remer in any of these films or not?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, we will see them, if the videos will be shown.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I pass from Althans to somebody called -- I will take them
26out of order because I want to stick with what you have

. P-20

<< 1-5181-183 >>