Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 27: Electronic Edition

Pages 156 - 160 of 183

<< 1-5181-183 >>

 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Shall we see when the evidence is finished?
 2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Your Lordship I tried to minimize the names to a degree
 3that I, from my social science perspective, said it is
 4unbearable, just to make the point.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
 6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     So it is a kind of ----
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us try and be practical about it.
 8Mr Irving, I think what Professor Funke is saying is that
 9he is a social scientist. He therefore felt that he had
10an obligation in a way to explain really the political
11pressures and counter pressures that have been operating
12in Germany really ever since the end of the war.
13 MR IRVING:     It is frightfully interesting, and I read it with
14great interest.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is all very interesting and it is
16extremely scholarly, but in the end what I am concerned
17with, and he is not really implicating you specifically in
18that, save to the extent that the background of the
19organizations may have some bearing on your willingness to
20associate with them, but in the end what I am concerned
21with is your contacts with this quite limited number of
23 MR IRVING:     I agree.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What I was saying to you a while back is that
25I think you should concentrate on that, not get, if I may
26say so, bogged down in the social science aspects of

. P-156

 1Professor Funke's report.
 2 MR IRVING:     I agree.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think you lose anything by taking
 4that course.
 5 MR IRVING:     The risk we have, my Lord, is that we spoke
 6yesterday of the rogues gallery that we were going to
 7enter. We find ourselves in the rogues gallery with
 8thousands of little photographs and now we are being told,
 9well, ignore all these photographs, just pay attention to
10the six down in the bottom right hand corner. I am quite
11happy to do that as long as Mr Rampton does not later on
12say that Mr Irving has ignored all these other gangsters.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am going to take the Defendants' case as
14really in the end coming down to maybe a dozen
16 MR IRVING:     Six.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Who have been identified by Mr Rampton this
19 MR RAMPTON:     It may be rather more than six.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I said a dozen. It may be more but they have
21been identified and their organizations have been
22identified, and I think, with due respect of course to
23Professor Funke, that that is what I am concerned with and
24that is all I am concerned with.
25 MR RAMPTON:     To be fair, it is actually what the guts of the
26report is concerned with. It is a chronological account

. P-157

 1of Mr Irving's neo-fascist contacts in Germany.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. I am not criticising Professor Funke at
 3all, or indeed Mr Irving, but I just think that we all
 4need to focus on what matters, and not get sidetracked.
 5 MR IRVING:     Of course, the serious problem there for me is that
 6I do not know what dozen names Mr Rampton is thinking
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do. We heard them this morning. Indeed
 9overnight, if it would help, I suspect it would take five
10minutes for Mr Rampton or Miss Rogers to write them out on
11a piece of paper.
12 MR IRVING:     That would be extremely helpful.
13 MR RAMPTON:     I do not know whether Mr Irving is still getting
14the daily transcript. If he is, they will be in there.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Whether he is or he is not, I think it is
16something that would not be unreasonable to invite you to
18 MR RAMPTON:     I will do, but I will have to see the transcript
19myself first because my memory is fallible.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have actually been highlighting the ones
21that I think have been mentioned.
22 MR IRVING:     Some are obvious but some are less obvious, if I
23can put it like that.
24 MR RAMPTON:     Most of them are in the index to the two bundles
25apart from Rami and Verala that I mentioned.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You are not relying on all the ones in the

. P-158

 1index. There are an awful lot who have not been featured
 2at all.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     I do not know about that. Is that right?
 4 MR IRVING:     If we can strike out all but a dozen, then I am
 5sure that your Lordship would be very happy and so would
 6I. I am prepared to carry on with what I am doing at
 7present, if your Lordship would indicate where I should
 8resume the cross-examination from.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     Would Mr Irving just restrain his youthful
10enthusiasm for a moment.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Why do we not do it now? Can I tell you what
12my impression is? Tell me if I have it wrong, Mr
13Rampton. If we start at the appendix, page 140?
14 MR RAMPTON:     I am probably in the wrong page.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Maybe I am in the wrong bit. I think 140 is
17 MR RAMPTON:     I see. I am sorry.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Maybe you have a better reference.
19 MR RAMPTON:     That one?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
21 MR RAMPTON:     I was going to use the two main bundles, but one
22can start with Althans.
23 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I have highlighted the names that
24Mr Rampton referred to this morning.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us go through them so that we all know
26where we are. Althans, yes.

. P-159

 1 MR IRVING:     Christophersen, yes.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. I will do it, if you do not mind, Mr
 3Irving. Deckert yes. Dienel, yes, although there may be
 4a tenuousness about the contact. It was one of the ones
 5I mentioned. Felderer on page 143. Rudiger Hess
 6I mentioned but I think only in passing, at the bottom of
 7that page. Gottfried Kussel in the middle of the next
 9 MR IRVING:     Philipp.
10 MR RAMPTON:     Karl Philipp on page 145. Ernst Otto or it may be
11Otto Ernst Remer at the bottom of 145. I do not remember
12whether I asked about Jurgen Rieger. He was mentioned by
13the Professor in evidence. Then we get to page 148 where
14we find Staglich, Swierczek, Walendy, and over the page
15the Worches. I do not think I mentioned Ingrid Weckert.
16I am not much interested in her.
17 MR IRVING:     Thomas Wulff.
18 MR RAMPTON:     I did not mention him, the Professor did.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That, I think, may be quite a useful
21 MR IRVING:     As long I am not penalised for not cross-examining
22on others.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You will not be.
24 MR RAMPTON:     Can I say something else as well? Mr Irving is
25not going to be penalised, or I am not going to attempt to
26get your Lordship to penalise him, for not having put

. P-160

<< 1-5181-183 >>