Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 27: Electronic Edition

Pages 151 - 155 of 183

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    I know he is and we have had this sort of
 1problem before, but what I would find helpful is if you
 2could cross-examine about the specific instances that are
 3relied on of your being associated with individuals who he
 4treats as right-wing extremists or with organizations, and
 5that comes really from my reading as from about 38
 6onwards.
 7 MR IRVING:     Well, I would say it comes from 19 onwards, my
 8Lord, which is the right-wing extremist DVU.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think I can stop you because all of
10this material is there.
11 MR IRVING:     At 3.1.1 you say that Mr Irving had spoken to
12bodies and organizations like banks, bookshops, student
13fraternities, the US Army Corps and so on. You are aware
14that I also spoke at universities like Harvard, Cambridge,
15Oxford and Bonn and Geeson and Marburg, are you?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I recall Bonn, yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     At 3.1.2 you criticise publishers that I deal with as
18publishing former NS, in other words National Socialist
19figures, and suggest that makes them right-wing
20extremists. Are you not familiar with the publishers who
21publish the memoirs of Albert Spear, who is another top
22Nazi? Does that make them right wing extremists? What is
23the special chemical element that turns a publisher into a
24right-wing extremist?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Good question. It is again that they did it by a special
26purpose, to present the right-wing extremist cause, as the

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 1GFP, the Society for Free Communication. That is part of
 2the network after 45, after the ban of the clear cut
 3neo-national Socialist party of Remer. Then this
 4networking was a kind of replacement in the early 60s with
 5Gert Sudholt and the Deutsche Kulturwerk and all this
 6groupings Dietmar Munier of the Arndt-Verlag. So they
 7tried to make the cause, although the whole political
 8scenery is not fostering these kinds of groupings.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would they not have been prosecuted if they had been
10publishing politically incorrect materials or illegal
11materials?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, and this is the case for some of them at least.
13I value it. It is the case, if the things are very, very
14intense, repeatedly, and going to the direction of
15hardcore right-wing extremist or neo-Nazi extremism or are
16related to violence, and of course the Holocaust denial,
17you know, groupings. These are the four dimensions in
18which official institutions intervene more than in other
19cases.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     The Germans clamp down quite a bit on publishing, do they
21not? They burn a lot of books in Germany even now, do
22they not?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Say it again.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     The Germans burn a lot of books in Germany even now, do
25they not?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I cannot answer this question. You allude to the burning

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 1of the books in 33.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     You have an index, do you not, of banned books in Germany?
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well Mr Irving ----.
 4 MR IRVING:     The follow up question was, to your knowledge, have
 5any of my books ever been banned in Germany on any of the
 6indexes or lists? The answer is no, right?
 7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I do not know.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. At paragraph 3.2.1 you now bring in the Socialist
 9Reich Party. Do you allege that I had any contacts with
10this Socialist Reich Party?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Then why do you mention it?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No. If I may say so, you misread it. I just wanted to
14give an overview for the court that there was something,
15as I did now to the court verbatim, that there are groups
16in the early 50s of a special importance. Then it went
17down to a degree and it came in the mid or late 80s more
18to the fore and even was perceived as the danger for some
19liberal democracy basics. So this was an overview, and it
20does not mean, and I did not say, that you are related to
21these groups. You are were 14 years old when the group
22was banned, so there is no way.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is a report on my extremist activities so-called.
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     This is a misreading. If it is mistaken, then I have to
25say, no, you as a 14 years old boy was not interacting
26with the then banned SRP.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, we must get on. We are really
 2make no progress at all.
 3 MR IRVING:     Am going to ask a general question. In other
 4words, you do mention an awful lot of names in this report
 5without my having had any contact with them whatsoever, is
 6that right? It is a total kaleidoscope of German politics
 7of the last half century and I have had no contact with
 8any of those names.
 9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I need not defend my report.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think the answer to that is yes. When
11I read it, which was a long time ago now, I got the
12impression that there was an awful lot of initials and
13names of organisations that I am not in the end going to
14have to be concerned with. Is that fair?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I disagree.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I was hoping you would agree.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     But to make a point.
18 MR RAMPTON:     Your Lordship might like to look at it, or think
19about looking at it, in the way that I do. I am
20principally concerned obviously with Mr Irving's immediate
21and intimate contacts, who organizes the meeting, what is
22said at those meetings in particular by Mr Irving and
23those immediate contacts. However, those immediate
24contacts do have a genealogy, and that, it seems to
25me, having read the report again, is how the names, what
26I might call the outer circle of names, come into the

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 1picture. Whether they matter very much at the end of it
 2all is a separate question.
 3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Your Lordship, can I say something to you both?
 4 MR RAMPTON:     Include me as well.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. Please do.
 6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I thought I did a favour to the court and to the debate to
 7try to bring this genealogy, to get a sense of this
 8different political culture after 45. They have to renew
 9a democracy, then they have to fight those who tried to go
10back. So I have to at least mention them, and especially
11then these persons often are the same that came to the
12fore in the late 80s, in the case of the SNP with respect
13to the founder Remer. Then I thought, OK, it is too many
14names for all of you, for all three of you, so to speak,
15and I did a short paper of 22 pages. I delivered it the
16other week to the solicitors, and I hope you will get it
17and you have it.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     As a matter of fact, I have not got it.
19 MR RAMPTON:     Sorry, I did mention it.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, you did.
21 MR RAMPTON:     I have got it. If, when this evidence is
22finished, your Lordship would like it, it is a convenient
23summary, but we frankly took the view that your Lordship
24is so already burdened with paper that, if we gave another
2523 pages summarizing what is already in the report, it
26might not go down all that well.

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