Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 27: Electronic Edition

Pages 146 - 150 of 183

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    Has the DVU ever been prosecuted for Holocaust denial or
 1have any of its newspapers ever been prosecuted for
 2Holocaust denial, and it would be a useful standard to
 3judge by, would it not?
 4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I think they could have done but they did not.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     The answer is no?
 6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     This is up to the authorities to do if there is no
 7[German] ----
 8 THE INTERPRETER:     If there is no one claiming, no one bringing
 9a court case.
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     If there is no one claiming this case to the court, like
11as long as there is no institution claiming the DVU was an
12unlegal party, illegal party, so it is formally legal, but
13because of the content and of the strategy, according to
14the OPC and to the social sciences right-wing extremist.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     We are dealing with the Holocaust denial element at
16present. I did not quite understand your answer. Are you
17saying that nobody prosecuted them for Holocaust denial
18because nobody complained, did I understand that?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     At that period.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     But you know as well as I do, do you not, Professor Funke,
21that under German law, as it relates to Holocaust denial,
22specifically nobody has to complain? The Public
23Prosecutor can start a prosecution even without a
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It was in the '70s and it was not in the centre of
26interest and public interest is important, as you know,

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 1familiar with the liberal democracy.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     But at all material times for this case they have not been
 3prosecuted and at any time the Public Prosecutor could
 4have prosecuted the DVU if they had engaged in Holocaust
 5denial within the meaning of the law?
 6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     They could have, yes, yes, they could have, definitely.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, and the same goes for anti-Semitism. Have they ever
 8been prosecuted for anti-Semitic remarks?
 9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I am not sure ----
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     In any of their publications?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     --- that there are not some cases, so I have to restrict
12my knowledge, my answering on the -- restrict on the
13knowledge of -- restrict to the knowledge I have about
14this kind of relation between the Party and the judicial
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     I have to say the correct answer is not to your knowledge
17they have not been prosecuted?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Not to your knowledge, thank you.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Page 15, the first two or three lines?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     15?
21 MR IRVING:     Page 15, the first two or three lines. You are
22saying: "Right-wing extremism is often connected with an
23ideology and/or a practical tendency towards violence,
24militancy and terror". In calling me a right-wing
25extremist, are you saying that I am a violent, militant
26and terrorizing person, is that what you are trying

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 1to ----
 2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No, you have a militant rhetoric with respect to Jews.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     With respect to Jews?
 4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     And with respect to so-called other races, but you are
 5not, you did not, you did not say violent things so far
 6I saw it or, you know, applausing violence or instigating
 7that, but you joined groups who, like the neo-Nazi groups,
 8I said, I described before the break that are utterly for
 9violent acts to get the second revolution done.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     If these groups that you say I joined were committing
11these illegal acts, would they not have been prosecuted or
12declared illegal at the material times or have been
13declared illegal?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Say it again.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     If these groups that you say that I joined had been
16committing these illegal acts under German law, would they
17not have been prosecuted or put out of business?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     They are, they were.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     At the time I allegedly joined them?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It was nearly in the same time, so let us talk about the
21NO invitation, the National Offensive invitation in '92,
22of Swerzik, we had it. These, the groups around the
23Michael Kuhnen crew, or let us say the
24Gesinnungsgemeinschaft, were banned to a degree in the
25same year. So Deutsche Alternative, National Offensive,
26others, were banned because of the instigation of racial

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 1hatred and instigation of violence against foreigners.
 2This was the reason why they were banned.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     I have to hold you to this now because the question I have
 4to ask you is at the time I spoke, if I spoke to any of
 5the bodies that you have mentioned, were they banned or
 7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Not, of course.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, and how could I have anticipated that at some time in
 9the future in a country where there had been no bans,
10these bodies that I have been speaking to would suddenly
11find themselves banned?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     As an intelligent man who knows Germany, you could have
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Oh, yes. Can I take you back to the previous remark which
15I cannot allow it to go unchallenged where you say that
16I used militant language against the Jews, do you have any
17particular passage in mind or was this a throw-away line
18rather like the ----
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No, I do not do this throw-away lines. We have 40 pages
20during the ----
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We are back now to where we were about 25
22minutes ago.
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, but ----
24 MR IRVING:     Very well.
25 MR RAMPTON:     May I intervene? I think what Professor Funke is
26trying to say is that he has read my cross-examination of

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 1Mr Irving on that topic.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, well, I was going to say the same thing
 3in a slightly different way. We have got the allegedly
 4anti-Semitic speeches and so on that you made. Professor
 5Funke, no doubt, could give evidence about it, but I
 6just do not think it is a worthwhile use of the court's
 8 MR IRVING:     My Lord, in my ignorance, I thought it important
 9not to allow that remark to go unchallenged in case
10Mr Rampton a week from now says, "This was stated and he
11did not challenge it".
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If he did, I would not listen to him.
13 MR IRVING:     Professor Funke, would you look at paragraph 2.2.5,
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If I may say so, Mr Irving, whilst I am
16interrupting again and apologies for doing so.
17 MR IRVING:     Slow progress?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is all very -- not much, I am bound to
19say. Again we are spending a lot of time on what we might
20call the preliminaries, whereas I read this report when he
21really is getting down to make the case he seeks to make
22against you and your connections with these various
23right-wing extremists, that really comes a good deal
24further on and ----
25 MR IRVING:     Well, he is throwing in names the whole time.

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