Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 27: Electronic Edition

Pages 141 - 145 of 183

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    So there are occasions when you can use tainted
 1sources, am I right, and still establish the truth using
 3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I do not say that they are tainted sources as sources.
 4They are very valid and I can prove it ditch by ditch or
 5centimetre by centimetre.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, if you go to page 12 where we have the OPC defining
 7what it means by the word "extremist"?
 8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Paragraph 2.6?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is the Office for the Protection of the Constitution
12 "defines as extremist all endeavours aimed at abusing,
13fully or in part, constitutional law and all efforts to
14replace it with a totalitarian nationalistic system".
15Now, this is your own words, and I am going to have to ask
16you when we come to these various people and figures and
17organisations whether they fit that criterion; somebody
18like Ewald Althans, was he trying to overthrow
19constitutional law and replace with a totalitarian system,
20in your view?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     As joining a neo-Nazi Party -- a neo-Nazi grouping, of
22course, of course.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     This is the core of it. I mean, read the text of Michael
25Kuhnen. I quote at length about the second revolution.
26It is the second revolution in the course of the Nazi

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 1groupings around strasse, and he rephrased it a bit and
 2even sharpened it, so saying that Hitler is the hero of
 3the Aryan race and so forth. So this is something.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is the PDS an extremist body in the opinion of the OPC?
 5What is the PDS?
 6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     The PDS is a party that came out of the former Communist
 7SED, changed the name, changed by the course of the last
 810 years parts of the ideas, parts of the electorate,
 9parts of the membership, and I would describe this
10grouping, this party, as a kind of post socialistic,
11partially authoritarian sticking to the democratic liberal
12rules party. So it is a mixture, very interesting to
13observe but not by the OPC observed party.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Why does the OPC not scrutinize this left wing Communist
15party successor then which appears to fulfil the criteria?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No, no, this is debated, so this is a kind of tricky
17decision they have to make, if the dominant groupings in
18the party in the PDS really can be described as
19anti-constitutional or not. So this is debated, and there
20are sources that say that this is not the case and other
21sources say it is the case.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     It appears to be a bit elastic then, the way they define
23the word "extremist"?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     In that sense they have to because it is clear from the
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think, honestly, we have taken this far

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 1enough. We are not going to get into examinations of
 2totalitarian socialism. We are dealing with totalitarian
 4 MR IRVING:     If we now look back at the right-wing end of the
 5spectrum, again the Republicans, Franz Schonhuber's Party,
 6you have linked me with them, have you not?
 7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     You had some connections, some interactions, in the early
 8phase of '89 and follows with them.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Where they defined by the OPC as extremist?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     To a degree, it depends again because this again is a case
11not identical with the PDS, on the other side, but after a
12period of discussions and looking through the internal
13structure and ideologies of the Party, they decided to a
14degree to observe them, but, compared to the other
15parties, the NPD and the DVU, it is, you know, of lower
16intensity because of the kind of vague
17self-definition ----
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Before we ----
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     --- of the Party.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Before we leave the Republicans, is it right, in fact,
21that the Republicans fought a High Court battle in the
22Supreme Court against the Office of Protection of the
23Constitution and had the watchdogs taken off them, if
24I can put it like that?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     This is only the case for one State.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     For one State?

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 1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     For Berlin.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     I did not know that. So effectively ----
 3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     And maybe some other States. I know it from Berlin, but
 4it is not true for the Federal level.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you saying that the Republicans are extremists or
 6not? Are you still saying they are extremists in the
 7meaning ----
 8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I personally, in my judgment, because I did a piece on
 9that, I would say they are extremists because of the
10anti-Semitic rhetoric of especially the then, the then,
11leader of the Party, Franz Schonhuber, and the furious
12hatred against foreigners he spread and leanings to
13authoritarian state likewise. So I can go into detail if
14it is necessary.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Then this brings up again your own political opinion,
16though, if you state that your personal view of Schonhuber
17or your personal view of the Republicans ----
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No, it is a personal scientific opinion based on an
19analysis of this party at length. My personal views are
20not of interest except your Lordship are interested in
21that, so I, of course, would be able to say something
22about my personal opinions.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Even the OPC has been ordered to take off the watchdogs in
24Berlin anyway, then this implies that they ----
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I said ----
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- are very borderline.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We have had that ----
 2 MR IRVING:     They are very borderline, are they?
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- and we are not spending long on the OPC,
 4I hope?
 5 MR IRVING:     I am using them as a north, a kind of pole star to
 6steer the court by. What entitles you to describe the
 7German people's union as being a right-wing extremist
 9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     You mean DVU?
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, the DVU. Have you ever read their manifesto, so to
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I read a bunch of papers of them.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are they anti-Semitic?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I have even the newspapers of these days here, but maybe
15it is not of interest ----
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can we deal with the manifestos first? Are there
17manifestos, did they have a Holocaust denial element?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I referred to the Holocaust denial publications of the
19central paper, newspaper, of this Party, the Deutche
20[German] where at length over months the [German]
21presentation of the hoax of the 20th century was
22distributed to the people who were reading this Party
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     A Holocaust denial is illegal in Germany, is it not?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, to a degree, yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     

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