Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 27: Electronic Edition

Pages 131 - 135 of 183

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    You say that a man called Althans sells and distributes
 2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It is in the context of your interaction with Ewald
 3Althans. It is not only this kind of selling.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     You do not attach much importance that he was a book
 5seller. In paragraph 15, the next paragraph, you refer to
 6the fact that I have been deported from Austria, and you
 7make something of that. I do not blame you. That was
 8June 26th 1984, was it not?
 9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, so far as I recall.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     That I was complemented out of the country, as they say.
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes. You were then in November '89 and you had to leave.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can we remain with the 1984 one?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you tell the court what was the role of the Austrian
15Minister of the Interior, Karl Blecher, in that? Did he
16do that personally?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I do not know exactly. I read it, but it did not go into
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you know the role of the Austrian documentation archive
20of the Wiedestant in securing my deportation, of the
21resistance archive?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I know the archive, but I do not know the role.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you characterize this Austrian resistance archive,
24what its politics are? Has it got strong communist
25leanings? Is it known as a communist body?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I do not know.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I ask you to look at the first item in the bundle of
 2documents I gave you? It is a letter from me to The Times
 3dated July 11th 1986.
 4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Page 1.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Am I complaining to The Times that, having reported my
 6deportation from Austria, they have not reported with one
 7line the fact that the deportation has been ruled illegal
 8and the Minister has been ordered to pay compensation?
 9You will see on the following page The Times item that
10reports this little victory.
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It seems so.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     The final paragraph of page 3, The Times item, says: "The
13spokesman for the Ministry of Justice said Mr Irving will
14be bringing a case for wrongful arrest against the
15officials involved later this year". So it is not just as
16cut and dried as you said, is it, deported from Austria?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Just it occurred and so I refer to it.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     It occurred and you refer to it. But you then say in the
19two lines from the bottom that he is banned from entering
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, can I interrupt you again? Do
22forgive me for doing so. I am not remotely ----
23 MR IRVING:     Interested.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     "Impressed" is the word I was going to use,
25or will be influenced by the fact that you have been
26banned and deported from these various countries. It

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 1seems to me I have to make up my own mind.
 2 MR IRVING:     It very marginally goes to the accuracy of this
 4 MR RAMPTON:     No. Anyway, Mr Irving was reading from the
 5pleadings and not from Professor Funke's report. I make
 6no capital out of the fact that he is banned. Your
 7Lordship is obliged as a matter of comity not to comment
 8on the deportations, but I much prefer that we make up our
 9own minds, or your Lordship makes up your own mind, in
10this court whether Mr Irving deserved to be banned, which
11is quite a separate question.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is entirely the way I intend to approach
13it. I can see you resent it, but I think you can forget
14about it, or forget about them, the deportations, for the
15purposes of this case.
16 MR IRVING:     I will say in one line what I would have said about
17Australia and Canada, my Lord. Banned from Australia is
18because the labour Prime Minister said I was a bad
19character. They changed the immigration law to make it
20possible. Banned from Canada was because of a technical
21infringement of the Immigration Act. It was nothing to do
22with the Holocaust denial views. That was what I had
23hoped to elicits in this particular piece of
25     In paragraph 1.3.2, on page 9, five lines from
26the bottom, you suggest that my diaries have been

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 1sanitized for other readers. This is quite a serious
 2suggestion to make in view of the fact that the diaries
 3are before the court. What justification do you have for
 4the allegation that I sanitized the diaries, 20 million
 5words of them, before making them available to the court?
 6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Of course, this is a judgment, or a value statement, an
 7assessment. There are important phases I did not see,
 8I mean periods of time I did not see. Maybe you did not
 9put something in your diary, and of course, and this is
10the main point, the things we figured out by other sources
11with respect to the letter and to the events are not
12stated there as intense as private things that I am not
13interested in. So I had to read and make up my own mind
14by other sources. So in that sense it gives not a full
15picture of your interaction so far as they are important
16for the case that is at stake in the court.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can I see whether there is a misunderstanding
18because there may be. Are you, by the use of the
19word "sanitized", suggesting that Mr Irving has
20manipulated or redacted, and I am not sure what the
21redacted is, the diaries? "Redact" is a very curious
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I would say of course all diaries are redacted in the mind
24of the people and, with respect to what is at stake here,
25they are of course, I would say, redacted. Look at the
26Halle event, so you see a full scale different picture.

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 1 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I follow that. What I am trying to get at, and I cannot
 2quite think of the right term, is are you suggesting that
 3Mr Irving has deliberately altered the diaries after the
 4event in order to present a different picture from what
 5would originally have been given?
 6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I did not say this.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think that perhaps was a misunderstanding.
 8 MR IRVING:     I could not let that pass, my Lord. I had to draw
 9attention to it, and also the following phrase that I have
10to draw attention to is four lines from the bottom: "As
11will be set out below important passages in Irving's
12diaries have not been released to the defence". What
13basis do you have for making that allegation that implies
14that I have withheld documents on discovery?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It implies that you did your diary, and all of a sudden
16interrupted your diary. Because of this assumption, there
17are left out very interesting phases in the course of your
18activities in Germany and Austria. In Germany.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     You do accept that the way either you have expressed
20yourself or the way it has been translated into English,
21it gives the impression that I have had these pages of
22diaries and that I have taken them out of the file.
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I cannot say this.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     I have said I am not going to give them to the defence
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     

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