Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 27: Electronic Edition

Pages 126 - 130 of 183

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    It just seems to me that, in a way, I know
 1mind whether the charge of anti-Semitism ----
 2 MR IRVING:     As soon as the witness used the words "in his
 3judgment" I could hear bristling coming from the bench.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Good. Anyway, you have said you are going to
 5his report, and I think that is a good thing.
 6 MR IRVING:     I want to ask you a few general questions first.
 7The first question is that it is quite obvious from your
 8expert report, Professor Funke, that you do not like
 9right-wingers, do you?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I am asked to define right-wing extremism, and to do
11research how far you are connected with them, or said
12extremist views. That was my duty.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Professor, I think it is a fair question,
14though. He is asking you really your own personal
15opinion. I think that is legitimate.
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     OK, but I have to separate it with respect to the report.
17 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Of course, but I think he is entitled to ask the question
18even so.
19 MR IRVING:     I can say straightaway that I do not think he is
20biased, my Lord. There is certainly no bias here that
21I would detect.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Then you are not entitled to ask the
23question. The only relevance to the question was to
24suggest that he is biased. If you are not suggesting
25that, then you do not need to ask the question. I think
26that must be right. Tell me if I am wrong.

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 1 MR IRVING:     How far right of centre does this dislike start?
 2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Say it again?
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     How far right of centre line would this dislike of the
 4right-wingers start? It would have to be very extreme
 5right-wing before Professor Funke starts disliking him, or
 6Mrs Thatcherish, or Helmut Kohlish?
 7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     The problem is the same your Lordship raised, so I am a
 8bit in a problem.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can I try and clarify it because maybe I have
10not understood Mr Irving correctly. Professor Funke's
11personal political position seems to me to be relevant if
12and only if you are making the suggestion that he has been
13influenced in his report by his own political leanings.
14 MR IRVING:     If I can put ----
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If you are suggesting that, then I understand
16the line of questions. If you are not ----
17 MR IRVING:     I am. Would I be right, Professor, in suggesting
18that your report can be summarized under the title of a
19hostile view of the right-wing as viewed from the far
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No, I cannot agree. What I did, if I may answer in two or
22three sentences, is to refer to the state of research, and
23to the state of social sciences and to the definitions of
24the offices for the protection of the constitution, where
25right-wing extremism is defined. You could read it and it
26was a kind of sober account, to my judgment. Then

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 1I looked through these various developments and political
 2organizations through the course of the Federal Republic
 3from 45 onwards to the early '90s, and especially for that
 4period that is of interest for the court.
 5     So this is the layer and the criteria of this
 6definition I set out in the first pages. It is related to
 7how far these right-wing extremists attacking the core of
 8the institutions of the liberal democracy of the 45 period
 9of Federal Republic, how far they are striving, acting,
10going for authoritarian state, how far this is linked with
11anti-Semitism, is this linked with foreign hatred, and
12within the right-wing extremism how far it is clear cut
13for the re-establishment, or the establishment, to put it
14differently, of a pure Aryan race based state. So a
15Fuhrerstadt and so forth. These are the definitions that
16are laid out in the social sciences, and you may say these
17social sciences I quote are hostile to whatever.
18 MR IRVING:     Yes. That takes me to my next question which is,
19if I have understood your report correctly, your major
20basis for your statements, apart from my own discovery,
21are either the reports of the office for the protection of
22the constitution, which you describe as the OPC, or the
23consensus of opinion of social scientists, if I put it
24like that. You refer to the opinions of the social
25sciences. So we are up against now the consensus problem,
26that is all you social scientists who are saying

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 1right-wing extremism is that, plus the opinion of the
 2government security agency, and you rely on that
 3definition, do you, of right-wing extremism?
 4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I put it my way.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Those are the two sources?
 6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It is a kind of distorting of my presentation of the first
 720 pages.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am going to be asking you in a minute to look at the
 9offices of the protection of the constitution, and what
10kind of body it is, but I want to take you through one or
11two other matters first. First of all, a simple question
12that I have asked all the other witnesses. Are you under
13any kind of contract to Yad Vashem? Do you owe them any
14kind of money? Do you have any kind of outstanding
15obligations to them at all?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     To Yad Vashem?
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I would like, but I have not.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     On page 6 of your report -- we are actually digging into
20it now -- first line, Hajo Funke (that is you) has written
21a book or an article called "The Republicans" in a book
22called "The Brown Danger". That is a reference to the
23Nazis, is it not?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     You can say so, yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does not the title "The Brown Danger" imply that it is a
26kind of a left wing book, a left wing look at things?

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, Mr Irving, let us press on. I do not
 2think that is an appropriate question.
 3 MR IRVING:     You have also written an article on Martin Walser
 4and Ignatz Bubis in the General Jewish Weekly, the
 5Allgemeine Judische Wochenzeitung?
 6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     What was the problem about Martin Walser and Ignatz Bubis,
 8if you can summarize it in three lines? Martin Walser is
 9a German novelist, a very famous novelist, is he?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did he find fault with something about Ignatz Bubis?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Maybe, if it is of value for ----
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think it really is helpful, no.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Not helpful? Right.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is a question of priorities really, is it
16not? I think you have to tackle the ----
17 MR IRVING:     The people, yes. If you look now at the second
18paragraph from the bottom which you have numbered 14, we
19have something here about Ewald Althans.
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     You say that a man called Althans sells and distributes
22books, videos and cassettes of mine. Now, as of today,
231,430 shops deal directly with me, selling my books,
24videos and cassettes, and large numbers of major
25distribution companies do, too. So do you rely very
26heavily on the fact that this man Althans sold books of

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