Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 27: Electronic Edition

Pages 121 - 125 of 183

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     You do not know the answer to that?
 2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I am not very informed about that whole biography of
 3Mr Staglich.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     You do not know if he retired?
 5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     There were quarrels because of his denialist or so books
 6and, if I get a minute, I can answer a bit better than
 7just now.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If Mr Irving puts to you that he lost his
 9job, is that right, because of his right-wing views?
10 MR IRVING:     That he was dismissed from his position for
11his views on German history.
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     This is my recollection, but I was not sure, so I am
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does this often happen in German? Are judges frequently
15relieved of their position by the Ministry of Justice for
16having incorrect----
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     That is seldom. It is related to this, especially -- for
18example, to other things also -- to the Holocaust denier
19things because of the state of laws in Germany.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you know how difficult it is to remove an English judge
21from their position?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think we are straying a bit. That was not
23said defensively or anything like that! But let us move
24on. We are slowing down.
25 MR IRVING:     The point is I was about to come on to Gunter
26Deckert. Did the same thing happen in the case of Gunter

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 2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     You mentioned the case of Gunter Deckert, who is
 4admittedly a friend of mine. He has been in prison now
 5for seven years. What happened originally? Was he
 6acquitted by two judges?
 7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     There was back and forth decision processes in Manheim and
 8on higher levels of various courts, because of this
 9denialist thing, and this leads to the whole issue how the
10German, after 45 for public, deals with this kind of
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Incitement to hatred?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     And hatred and insult.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Defaming the memory of the dead?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Insult of dead people, defamation, right. Thank you.
16This is a very decisive, very important thing in the whole
17debate between the judicial system and political and
18law-making processes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     All rather unpleasant. Can you confirm that the two
20judges in the Court of Appeal said unanimously that they
21found that Gunter Deckert was an outstanding teacher and a
22patriot who had done what he considered to be best for his
23country and they acquitted him on that ground?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I have to see the events. I do not know.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you know what happened thereupon to those two judges,
26Judge Ortlett and another?

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 1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Give me the evidence, to be sure.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did it not make great headlines in Germany about three or
 3four years ago when the two judges were dismissed and sent
 4to early retirement for having come up with the wrong
 6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     So far as I recall, yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     This was a decision of the Ministry of Justice in Germany
 8for the judges that come up with an undesirable verdict?
 9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Give me the evidence. Then I can look. But now you are
10not interested in the overall picture.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am interested in whether Gunter Deckert is somebody of
12with whose friendship one can be comfortable, namely
13somebody who has been acquitted by two judges before they
14themselves are penalised, or whether in fact he is the
15kind of neo-Nazi extremist that is of interest in this
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think the point that the Professor has made
18is that he was leader of the NPD from 1991 to 1995.
19 MR IRVING:     My Lord, we will come on to the character of the
20NPD in the course of the more regular cross-examination on
21the basis of his report, but I was looking at the person
22of Dr Gunter Deckert himself, which was touched upon in
23the little preview given by Mr Rampton this morning.
24Mr Rampton took you briefly through the matter of whether
25the Jews had themselves to blame. I do not want to dwell
26on that in great detail because it is not a part of your

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 1expert report, but in fact it is a matter which has caused
 2I think, inflamed passions here in the courtroom. I was
 3going to ask you if, in your answers, you would agree
 4there is a difference between something being explicable
 5and something being excusable? If I can put it in a
 6totally non-Jewish context, I can say that what happened
 7to Dresden was explicable, but not excusable?
 8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I understand the differentiation you are opting to do with
 9these two words.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. You understand there is a difference? Can you say
11that perhaps what happened to the Jews in the Baltic
12states was explicable but of course not in the least bit
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I think this is done in the court procedures with various
15historians, and I am not an expert on that. With respect
16to the prejudices against Jews, I have to say that, if the
17dimension of explicability and excusability comes
18together, are linked, then we get a problem. I would say
19that some of the statements you made, for example, and are
20made, generally spoken, of those who are against Jewry,
21who are anti-Semites, exactly make this problem, that
22these persons say, OK, they are the disliked, it is caused
23by them, so they have a kind of partial or full guilt of
24what happened with them, and this is at the core of a
25very, very intense anti-Semitism, at the time in the 30s,
26and again in the 90s, throughout to this century.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     You have read all my diaries, have you not?
 2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Not all. No, not possible.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     They have been made available to you. Have you found any
 4examples of anti-Semitism in my diaries that you can
 6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Not in the diaries, so far as I recall. Maybe there are
 7some exceptions, but it is not dominant.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     By anti-Semitism, of course, we are not referring just to
 9somebody saying a critical remark about a Jew in
10particular, or about a particular group, we are talking
11about a visceral unreasoning blind hatred?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Right, and I was here in the courtroom when Richard
13Rampton asked you about a bundle of quotations of speeches
14and statements and interviews that you gave. My personal
15judgment was he quoted racist and anti-Semitic statements,
16a lot of them, so I was really shocked at that minute in
17the courtroom.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     We are all shocked. I was shocked too but of course, when
19you put things in these contexts sometimes, the shock
20factor diminishes.
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Can I add ----
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, I am not going to stop you --
23forgive me, Professor.
24 MR IRVING:     I have his report now open, my Lord.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It just seems to me that, in a way, I know
26what the Defendants rely on and it is for me to make up my

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