Irving v. Lipstadt
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 27: Electronic Edition
Pages 116 - 120 of 183
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1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So far as I got a clue by the diaries and the letters
2between Worch and you and others.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] Tell the court what the reason was, so far as you know?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] You did not want to be on a demonstration or an event
5where also Michael Kuhnen would be there.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, I refused to be in the same place as Michael Kuhnen.
7Does that tell you anything about my contact, to use that
8word, with Mr Michael Kuhnen?
9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I did not say that you cooperated with Michael Kuhnen, but
10with the main successors and cooperators of Michael
11Kuhnen. So with the person you did not do a lot so far as
12the data are there.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] Can I just ask you to look quickly at the little bundle of
14documents? It should be page 9 or page 8. It is a letter
15from me to the Der Spiegel?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, it is 8.
17 Q. [Mr Irving] Page 8 or 9, is it?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] It is 8.
19 Q. [Mr Irving] Is this a letter in which in the second paragraph I am
20telling Der Spiegel and their readers: "It is not
21accurate to say that in August I will speak at a function
22of Mr Kuhnen in Wansiedel in connection with a memorial
23function for Rudolf Hess"?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, as you said before.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] Then when Der Spiegel refused to publish the letter,
26because they had said exactly the opposite, that on
1February 17th 1991, if you will turn to the next page,
2please, I then wrote to my lawyer -- I am sorry, this is
3not the right letter at all. Do we have the right letter?
4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Maybe it is my report.
5 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, it is. I am sorry. It is page 30. Page 30 of that
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] What bundle? Your bundle, yes.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] It is either page 29 or page 39, probably page 30. It is
9headed "Discovery 12.8.9"?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] 29 is a sheet of paper with nothing.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] It should be headed "Discovery 12.8.9"?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Maybe it is before, I do not know. No, it is blank.
13Maybe I get yours for a minute. Thank you.
14 Q. [Mr Irving] Am I asking my Munich lawyer from Sprade, who is a
15reputable firm of lawyers, to take action to force
16Der Spiegel to publish this dissociation of any contact
17between myself and Mr Kuhnen?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I have to read it. May I read the passage that is of
20 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes.
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Quotation -- no, Kuhnen had been identified in the
22previous paragraph as follows. Then quotation: "Also",
23that refers Der Spiegel, quotation, "Also, neo-Nazis like
24the self-proclaimed Fuhrer of the West German Brown
25movement, Michael Kuhnen, 34, intend to use Irving
26increasingly as a figure head. They plan=", quotation,
1'close collaboration'" quotation end, then quotation
2 "with respectable person like this", quotation end,
3 "Kuhnen hopes we will also reach circles that otherwise
4give us a wide berth".
5 MR IRVING: Yes. Let me ask you a question on that now.
6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] So it is right again that you did not take sides with
7Kuhnen himself, but you took sides with the Kuhnen
9 Q. [Mr Irving] In fact, I made it quite plain to Der Spiegel that I have
10not the slightest intention of allowing them to use me.
11Is that right?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] You were very clear on that.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] And can you suggest any reason why a magazine like Der
14Spiegel would print the opposite story? Would there be an
15intention to defame me?
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is neither here nor there and anyway, he
17cannot possibly say.
18 MR IRVING: While you have the bundle in front of you, can
19I ask you to look at page 28?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] That is blank. There is nothing there.
21 Q. [Mr Irving] Page 27?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes, there is something.
23 Q. [Mr Irving] Discovery 10.96?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving] Is there a letter translated from one of Germany's leading
26publishing houses, Robot Publishing House, to myself dated
1July 2nd 1985?
2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] That is right.
3 Q. [Mr Irving] It is a letter from somebody called Dr Michael Naumand.
4Does that name mean anything to you?
5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Yes.
6 Q. [Mr Irving] What is Dr Michael Naumand now, please?
7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Minister of Culture.
8 Q. [Mr Irving] At that time he was the Chief Editor of Robot Publishing
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Right.
11 Q. [Mr Irving] Here he is writing a letter, "Dear Mr Irving, Mr Hochhut
12has drawn my attention=" -- who is Rolf Hochhut, do you
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] He is a playwriter in Germany, for example, on Pious
1512th's relation to the Nazi period.
16 Q. [Mr Irving] Is he a left wing liberal?
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I am not quite sure what this goes
18to but Mr Naumand is expressing an interest in your
19forthcoming biography of Winston Churchill. Where do we
20go from there, as it were, especially with this witness?
21 MR IRVING: It is very difficult to do this with any other
22witness, my Lord.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You have done it with me. For what it is
24worth, I have got the point. I think you have better
25weapons in your armoury on this point.
26 MR IRVING: I am being accused of having the whole rogues
1gallery, to use Mr Rampton's phrase, of sleezy right-wing
2extremist friends and in fact I have a"du" friendship with
3Rolf Hochhut, who is one of Germany's leading left wing
4liberal playwright since February 1965. This was the
5point I hoped to bring out, I had hoped, in about ten
6seconds of cross-examination.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: All right. Ask the question.
8 MR IRVING: Well, do you know who Rolf Hochhut is? Is he a
9left wing liberal German playwright?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] He is a play writer, who attacked in his plays very harsh
11the silence of Pope Pious the 12th on the issue of the
12Holocaust during the Nazi period.
13 Q. [Mr Irving] So he is the opposite of a Holocaust denier, then?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I would say so, and he is a belover --
15 THE INTERPRETER: An admirer.
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] An admirer of Hans Junge, who is on the right, so I cannot
17say if he is a left liberal or right. He is a playwright.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes. He is a playwright.
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] A famous playwright.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] Have you seen about 5,000 items of correspondence between
21me and Mr Hochhut in the discovery?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] I did not see 5,000 or whatever, but I saw in the diary
23that you met him in a very friendly manner.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] Yes, thank you very much. You mentioned that Mr Staglich,
25the late Mr Staglich, was a former judge. Did he retire?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke] Oh this case, I am not very ----
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