Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 27: Electronic Edition

Pages 11 - 15 of 183

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    I am going also to ask you in respect of each person
 1of their contacts with Mr Irving. Can I first take a man
 2who is not on this list, called Michael Kuhnen? Who is or
 3was Michael Kuhnen?
 4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Michael Kuhnen was one of the leading neo-Nazi activists
 5in the 70s, throughout the 80s, up to April of '91, when
 6he died. He was up to renew the NSDAP of the period of
 7 '33 to '45.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What we now call the Nazi party?
 9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Right. So he did a lot together with others
10internationally and nationally, to ask for relegalization
11of this Party. Furthermore, he referred to special groups
12within the Nazi regime, that is the Sturmabteilung, the
13stormtroopers, a more street violence orientated
14perception of what the new Nazis, the neo-Nazis, the
15neo-National Socialists should do. Finally, I want to add
16that he asked for a second revolution in that sense, so to
17overflow the liberal democracy. He agitated very much
18against Jews, very anti-Semitic, he asked for pure Aryan
19race based state.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Give me again the year that he died?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     April 91.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     April 91. Amongst the neo-Nazi or far right groups now in
23Germany, are there any that can be described as Herr
24Kuhnen's direct heirs or successors?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     There are some, especially I have to say there is a person
26called Christian Worch and there is another person called

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 1Gottfried Kussel from Austria, and they both have close
 2links to NSDAPAO, person Gary Lauck from the United
 3States. These are the three most important -- there are
 4others around this camp, like Thomas Wulf from Hamburg,
 5Christian Worch is from Hamburg, Uschi Worch from Hamburg.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Is that Mrs Worch? Is that Frau Worch?
 7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
 8 MR IRVING:     My Lord, would it be helpful if the witness at each
 9stage indicated whether it is going to be alleged I had
10any contact with these names.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think that is stage 2.
12 MR RAMPTON:     Be patient, please.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, stage 2, do not worry. We will get to
14that.
15 MR RAMPTON:     Can you say whether a man called Ewald Althans is
16in this grouping or not?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, he is, but he did not found with the others one of
18these groupings in the 70s and the 80s was a group called
19ANSNA, action front of national socialists, and so forth,
20and then a group that is of importance for the period in
21the 80s and early 90s called Gesinnungsgemeinschaft, a
22group of the like-minded of the new front.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Who do we find in that -- have we got an abbreviation for
24that because I cannot say it each time?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     We can call them Gesinnungsgemeinschaft.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     All right. I will try. Gesinnungsgemeinschaft.

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 1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     We can call them also it is done sometimes in the social
 2scientists reports "the Kuhnen crew".
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Right, who nowadays is in the Kuhnen crew?
 4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Nowadays?
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes-- no, go back to the time when Kuhnen died, who do we
 6find in the ----
 7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     At that time it was Christian Worch, it was Althans, it
 8was Uschi Worch. So far I see at the side lines also
 9Ingrid Weckert, Gottfried Kussel, Thomas Wulf, and others.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Right, now taking them in turn, or, first, have they
11inherited, those people, the same kind of neo-Nazi
12ideology, particularly in relation to anti-Semitism, that
13was propounded by Kuhnen before he died?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     They did not change the course of their ideas, as far as
15they are stated publicly. There are tactical, you know,
16changes but of lower degree. If I may add, nowadays means
17this year and some of them are still active like the
18Christian Worch near to the NPD extreme right-wing
19extremist party. That in itself changed in the course of
20the 90s to a more radical strategy.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can we stay at the moment, please, in the early 90s at and
22around the time and immediately after the time of Kuhnen's
23death? At what date in Germany did Holocaust denial
24become illegal?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     There were in the middle of the '80s several laws set
26through the parliament that this is a kind of incitement

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 1of racial hatred and defamation of survivors and killed
 2people. So in the middle of the '80s, there was a
 3strikening, a sharpening of this kind of law that this is
 4forbidden and again in '94, and so there was again renewal
 5of this, of this law.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, now among those people that you have mentioned --
 7I am going to take them in turn -- you have had access,
 8have you not, to Mr Irving's correspondence, his diary and
 9material of that kind, have you not?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, I did.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     First, may I take Mr Kuhnen who is now dead? Did ----
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Rampton, I am so sorry to interrupt. For
13the transcribers' benefit, shall we just spell the names
14that we are really concerned with?
15 MR RAMPTON:     K-U-H-N-E-N.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you.
17 MR RAMPTON:     "Michael". Can you tell us whether or not
18Mr Irving had any contact with Michael Kuhnen and, if so,
19to what extent?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     So far I see, but you know better, to a limited degree he
21saw him once, at least -- I have to be very precise --
22they were at the same meetings.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Right.
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     In 1990 and so far I recall in '90 -- no, in '90,
25especially in '90, and in late '89. They were at the same
26meetings.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     How many meetings?
 2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     At least two I recall in Hagnau and on the 21st April
 3of '90 and -- no, this is it, yes.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     Yes.
 5 MR IRVING:     Could the witness be specific about what he means
 6by being at the same meetings? Does he mean that
 7Mr Kuhnen was in the audience or on the platform next to
 8me?
 9 MR RAMPTON:     That is a good question.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is a fair question, yes.
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Exactly. He was in the audience and ----
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Sorry, who was in the audience? Mr Irving
13was in the audience or Mr Kuhnen was in the audience?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Excuse me.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is quite important which actually?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Mr Kuhnen was in the audience and Mr Irving spoke in the,
17you know, a Congress [German] in Munich at the 21st
18April '90.
19 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, then what about Ewald Althans?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     This is very different. Mr Irving had close contacts ----
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Pause, sorry, I forgot. Althans is A-L-T-H-A-N-S. Ewald
22is E-W-A-L-D. Sorry.
23 MR IRVING:     Mr Rampton, most of the names are on the list that
24I have given to the transcriber.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I did not realize that.
26 MR IRVING:     

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